[hayroob]

Cretaceous Bob:

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

It's really pointless to take any side.

There wouldn't have been a problem if the Zionists hadn't decided land ownership is determined by religious texts, and there wouldn't be a problem now if people decided their children's futures were more important than fighting over land they felt was promised to them. The same way there was a huge influx of Jews into Palestine/Israel, they can all leave. Just about anywhere else in the world would serve as a better Jewish homeland. It's one thing to reside in a country for hundreds of years and then protest when you get attacked, but it's another entirely when you chase the inhabitants out of a piece of land, fill it with your own people, and then protest to coming under fire.

It's their war, and it's a mistake to get caught up in it. We should always provide assistance to anyone who wishes to leave the area on either side, but, otherwise, we should just butt out. That sounds harsh, given that most people on both sides don't deserve the stress, living conditions, and death inflicted upon them, but the harm taking a side does is not justified by the cause.

I'd also like to say I've noticed for a long time how Chemda always says she knows very little about Israel and Judaism, and simultaneously is very sensitive and defensive about the two. Whenever KATG got a letter from someone offended by something, Chemda was always the one to say, "That's the one thing that offended you? We're offensive about everything, so either be offended by everything or by nothing," yet when Keith turns the same humorous eye he applies to every country to Israel, Chemda is always frustrated and defensive. Keith can stereotype anywhere else, and say he doesn't need anywhere else, but what he says doesn't warrant protest until he says Israel is not, in fact, beautiful, but rather alot of brown dirt. That's not even that bad. Since all land is largely made up of dirt, most things beyond the extremely urban New York City are going to have a very strong tendency to bear a resemblance to dirt. Keith may claim Israel has a more monochromatic variety of dirt than most, but that's hardly something to constantly treat with impatience and irritation.

Edit: Oh, also, it's rare when I like anything outside of metal/classical/baroque music, but that 4 Inch Stud song from their new EP is pretty killer.

Badger:

Originally Posted by Badger

We need Jesse Joyce back on to blame Britain for inventing Israel in the first place.

catPee:

Originally Posted by catPee

well put Cretaceous Bob. And I've always said what Keith is saying - Both sides are children on a world scale. I wouldn't waste money on bombs and fuel for bombers - Lets just turn off all the cameras, and media, stop all trade, just say bye bye to everyone involved. Agreed, if anyone wants out, take care of them. But most of the 1st world can handle mixed cultures by now. There just isn't an excuse for this kinda boring crap any more.

catPee:

Originally Posted by catPee

interesting short documentary on Vice TV about the whole gaza bidness...

PALESTINE VS. ISRAEL - AGAINST THE WALL - Part 2 of 6 - VBS.TV

ok, brumsky

DaveNJ:

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

It's really pointless to take any side.

There wouldn't have been a problem if the Zionists hadn't decided land ownership is determined by religious texts, and there wouldn't be a problem now if people decided their children's futures were more important than fighting over land they felt was promised to them. The same way there was a huge influx of Jews into Palestine/Israel, they can all leave. Just about anywhere else in the world would serve as a better Jewish homeland. It's one thing to reside in a country for hundreds of years and then protest when you get attacked, but it's another entirely when you chase the inhabitants out of a piece of land, fill it with your own people, and then protest to coming under fire.

It's their war, and it's a mistake to get caught up in it. We should always provide assistance to anyone who wishes to leave the area on either side, but, otherwise, we should just butt out. That sounds harsh, given that most people on both sides don't deserve the stress, living conditions, and death inflicted upon them, but the harm taking a side does is not justified by the cause.

I'd also like to say I've noticed for a long time how Chemda always says she knows very little about Israel and Judaism, and simultaneously is very sensitive and defensive about the two. Whenever KATG got a letter from someone offended by something, Chemda was always the one to say, "That's the one thing that offended you? We're offensive about everything, so either be offended by everything or by nothing," yet when Keith turns the same humorous eye he applies to every country to Israel, Chemda is always frustrated and defensive. Keith can stereotype anywhere else, and say he doesn't need anywhere else, but what he says doesn't warrant protest until he says Israel is not, in fact, beautiful, but rather alot of brown dirt. That's not even that bad. Since all land is largely made up of dirt, most things beyond the extremely urban New York City are going to have a very strong tendency to bear a resemblance to dirt. Keith may claim Israel has a more monochromatic variety of dirt than most, but that's hardly something to constantly treat with impatience and irritation.

Edit: Oh, also, it's rare when I like anything outside of metal/classical/baroque music, but that 4 Inch Stud song from their new EP is pretty killer.

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

So Jews aren't allowed to immigrate to the Middle East? The strength of Israel as a nation is that it's the restoration of the world's only Jewish nation. To say it would succeed elsewhere is ludicrous. The ONLY reason it works is because of Judaism's historic attachment to the land.

It's misrepresentative to say Jews just came in and took land. A lot of land was purchased and Britain allowed immigration into a territory they controlled. Jews moved in. Eventually a partition plan (like Pakistan and India) was set up. Israel accepted a tiny state for Jews, much smaller than it is now, and with no territorial contiguity.

The Arabs declined and invaded.

Yeah, America backs Israel, but why shouldn't we? Israel is a democratic nation with amazing trade ties with us. They have the number one producer of generic pharmaceuticals on the planet, and if your computer uses a Dell processor odds are it was fabricated in Israel. Israel invented AIM, too.

What would you have America do, just back down because doing the right thing is unpopular? Fuck that. Most Americans believe that aiding Israel and other small democracies that depend on us for protection (South Korea, West Germany pre-reconciliation, etc.) is a hallmark to our foreign policy.

We don't even put soldiers in Israel, and our foreign aid to Israel is only slightly higher than our foreign aid to Egypt, a nation with a dictator.

Israel catches a lot of shit because the Arab world hates Israel. There's tons of stuff going on right now that's way worse than what's happening in Gaza. Darfur, where the killers are Muslim (so we can't pay attention to that in the Arab world), DR Congo, where 5 million have died in the past ten years, and so much more.

Israel is a country that isn't going away. Until the Arab world accepts that and works for peace none of this stuff will stop.

Cretaceous Bob:

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

So Jews aren't allowed to immigrate to the Middle East? The strength of Israel as a nation is that it's the restoration of the world's only Jewish nation. To say it would succeed elsewhere is ludicrous. The ONLY reason it works is because of Judaism's historic attachment to the land.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Dude, people were there already. Sorry, but if they don't like you, or don't like a lot of you showing up and trying to start a country, tough shit. You can fight the ensuing war, but that's not a legitimate reason for us to help you. (Oh, and also, no, people didn't and don't want Jews to move to the middle east. That's what happens when people are living somewhere. That was a stupid question.)

Why would it not succeed elsewhere? It can hardly be argued other candidates would be more inhospitable. Would it not work because the Zionists would not possibly settle for anything less than a restoration of Israel? Then while I can understand that, I cannot support that. That is unreasonable, and extremity of demands leads to inevitable hostility.

This is not a case of persecution within a country, or any sort of mistreatment of a people residing alongside the offending faction. This is an outside party placing themselves in the middle of an existing situation. Since you say the degree of harm in a situation should determine how much attention we give it, surely you can agree that there are far more causes worth supporting than this. Perhaps a situation where a people already lived in an area, and are being persecuted for just living there, rather than moving there.

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

It's misrepresentative to say Jews just came in and took land. A lot of land was purchased and Britain allowed immigration into a territory they controlled. Jews moved in. Eventually a partition plan (like Pakistan and India) was set up. Israel accepted a tiny state for Jews, much smaller than it is now, and with no territorial contiguity.

The Arabs declined and invaded.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Is it? Was there not a conscious decision to move a mass of people onto pre-owned land based on the promises of a religious text?

If you're going to cite the decisions of Britain as proof of who is right, then you will recognize that the British imposed increasingly strict immigration policies into Palestine, and Zionists moved into the area anyway. Zionists committed acts of violence against the British in retaliation to the immigration laws. In fact, the British refused the UN demands of unrestricted Jewish immigration into Israel. The owners of the land AND the residents of the land were against the immigration. If you say an imperialist power allowing immigration is a justification of support, how is the defiance of an imperialist power's immigration laws not a condemnation of that cause? If you do not agree that is a condemnation, then you have put forth that the Zionists had the right to move into the area, regardless of the will of the residents or owners. Why? And would you support that same justification if it were applied to the US's immigration laws?

A partition plan was decided on by the UN. It was a plan created by people not on the land, without regard for the people on the land, and was then expected to be accepted by the people on the land. It is misrepresentative to say a refusal of such a plan is unreasonable.

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

Yeah, America backs Israel, but why shouldn't we? Israel is a democratic nation with amazing trade ties with us. They have the number one producer of generic pharmaceuticals on the planet, and if your computer uses a Dell processor odds are it was fabricated in Israel. Israel invented AIM, too.

What would you have America do, just back down because doing the right thing is unpopular? Fuck that. Most Americans believe that aiding Israel and other small democracies that depend on us for protection (South Korea, West Germany pre-reconciliation, etc.) is a hallmark to our foreign policy.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Wait, are you arguing what is right, or what is profitable?

And yes, forcing the survival of unpopular ideologies in a region hostile to our philosophies is a hallmark of our foreign policy. Kind of funny how alot of complaining goes on about our foreign policy, especially about the period of time wherein we did this backing.

What's more, supporting one side is assenting to harm being done to the other. If you support Israel based on its system of government, you are deciding human life is devalued when it disagrees with you. I cannot see how that is superior to the Arab way.

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

Israel catches a lot of shit because the Arab world hates Israel. There's tons of stuff going on right now that's way worse than what's happening in Gaza. Darfur, where the killers are Muslim (so we can't pay attention to that in the Arab world), DR Congo, where 5 million have died in the past ten years, and so much more.

Israel is a country that isn't going away. Until the Arab world accepts that and works for peace none of this stuff will stop.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Oh, now something isn't bad unless there isn't something worse? I guess I'll go shoplift, and when the government tries to take action against me I'll yell about how there's more important things going on somewhere else. Or at least I would, if that argument didn't sound stupid in every single situation it could possibly be applied to.

There was a long history of anti-Zionist sentiment before the establishment of the state of Israel. The reaction of the Arabs to its formation was not surprising, especially given the violence leading up to it. There has to be a greater reason for provoking such violence than a book promised so.