[hayroob]

DamianDavid:

Originally Posted by DamianDavid

Yeah.... I think I'm going to have to back Keith's plans for pond renovations because clearly the nations of Israel, Iran, Palestine, etc. are way too distracting from what's truly important here, the band....

Hey Keith....so I was thinking... how do you feel about doing a co-branding thing on beach chairs and towels that we can sell down by the new watering hole? Depending on how many bombs we use, the good ole U.S. could make miles and miles of waterfront property on the 19th.

hayroob:

Originally Posted by hayroob

I'm the one who called in, the youtube videos i was talking about got taken down because of user complaints, but are still getting regular play on cnn and msnbc if you watch their coverage.

I think Jon Stewart is showing some of the best most balanced coverage I've seen (this was aired like 5 hours after I called into the show)
Strip Maul | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

hayroob:

Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane

israel has every right to put a fucking fence in our fucking side of the border and dont you fucking dare to compare this to the holocaust.
and no, we shouldnt return to our 67 borders because according to the geneva convention, if a country attacks you, and in your retaliation you conquer their territories, you have every right to keep them, which is exactly what happened to us.

Originally Posted by hayroob

First off fucking telling people what they fucking can fucking compare fucking things to when they're making a legitimate fucking point makes taking you fucking seriously a lot harder.
Second the fact of the matter is that Israel is just as guilty of aggression as the palestinians and moving back to pre 67 borders would be a huge step to show that Israel actually wants peace and isn't just waiting till the UN gives them the ok to seize what sovereignty the palestinian attempt at a state has left.

hayroob:

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Dude, people were there already........ There has to be a greater reason for provoking such violence than a book promised so.

Originally Posted by hayroob

I really like this and your earlier post, it is measured, well researched and given a lot of thought.
I've always thought that post holocaust a return to their holy land was a natural response, but for external imperialists powers to declare them a sovereign nation was going to piss of the people that were already there, especially when laws start getting passed based on people ethnicity/religion. I really believe that if a jewish state needed to be established in order to establish the security and future of the jewish people and faith then they should have carved them out a big chunk of Germany, which I don't think at the time anyone would have been in a position to contest.

DamianDavid:

Originally Posted by hayroob

I really like this and your earlier post, it is measured, well researched and given a lot of thought.
I've always thought that post holocaust a return to their holy land was a natural response, but for external imperialists powers to declare them a sovereign nation was going to piss of the people that were already there, especially when laws start getting passed based on people ethnicity/religion. I really believe that if a jewish state needed to be established in order to establish the security and future of the jewish people and faith then they should have carved them out a big chunk of Germany, which I don't think at the time anyone would have been in a position to contest.

Originally Posted by DamianDavid

I think I have a tendency to make sense out of this statement. I think this mess was bound to happen when land was taken away from inhabitants regardless of the good intention at the time. I actually think it's silly that it's so hard for people to see why the displaced persons would feel resentment and a sort of entitlement because of this arrangement....but then again, I guess that's why I choose to live in Chelsea....there's a weird sense of pride I feel in living in a nice place where squatters and low rent payers used to live until kicked off a few years ago in order to build a "Green Community Residential Structure" that provides some serious tax dollars for the politicians' campaign costs on top of being good for the earth. I mean I'm saving the environment, man, everytime I flush my double chambered enviro-toilet! Best part is, I watched some f*ckwad pour the oil from the pan he changed the oil to his car with in the garage of this eco-friendly empire down the flood drain just outside the garage door....oooops. Guess he didn't get the memo....or maybe they just needed bodies to fill the vacancies and got a little lazy with the reference/background checks and interrogation.

Cheers to good intentions and the f*ckin' mess they make.

EllaMacFarlane:

Originally Posted by hayroob

First off fucking telling people what they fucking can fucking compare fucking things to when they're making a legitimate fucking point makes taking you fucking seriously a lot harder.

Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane

sorry i snapped

also, we are not going to just go back to the 67 borders so it will show our good intentions. we need a signed treaty that will make both sides stop shooting while we discuss borders.

Mattman:

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Dude, people were there already........ There has to be a greater reason for provoking such violence than a book promised so.

Originally Posted by Mattman

All very well put.

Some other interesting talking points ....
-the Jewish settlements on land "belonging" to Palestinians are still there in spite of US resolutions, and were usually the targets for missiles before the ceasefire and after its cessation.
- much of the Israeli Army is Russian. They were immigrants fleeing the post-soviet mess looking for a better life. The Palestinians were born there and their children have been born into refugee camps in some of the most crowded and inhumain conditions in the world. And now they are imprisoned without even medical aid (humanitarian corridor opened by Israel? how generous!)
- it was widely reported, although officially denied, that Cheyney had OKed Israeli military action in advance
- Israel have been bombing administration and security force "targets" as well as the "terrorists". All police stations were levelled in the first 48 hours including one that was celebrating a passing out ceremony of cadets, killing 40 of them
- US have vetoed UN sanctions against Israel that would have allowed aid.
- Palestinians elected leaders from Hamas. A sign that the majority of Palestinians believe Hamas are the best group to defend their remaining land.

Jon:

Originally Posted by Keith

I sincerely liked reading all these, but to say Iran wishes death on no one is ridiculous. The state of Israel should go and Palestine should take over? What do you think that means?

Originally Posted by Jon

Keith, you have to make it Kahmedy to bring it home. It's the way you can get the point acrooss with a punch.
The U.S. needs to threaten to blow shit up and mean it if the kids on the playground can't behave and keep their hands to themselves, fuck 'em. Just like Regan with the Soviet Republic. It worked. I'm pretty sure we were born the same year.... '74.
Do you remember when you were six or seven and watching Palestinians and Israelis shoot each other up w/AK-47s while our parents watched the news on Friday or Saturday night news? 60 minutes? Andy's brows didn't quite reach out and touch you like they do now....And then you might have watched that boring crap on Sunday morn (the boring show with the sun fixture in the background) during breakfast?
Same fuckin' shit. Diff Day. Nothing new Right? Nothing's new. It's the 2000 year old war over shite. I call Brumsky. Grab friends and foes by the balls and let them know The United States cares.

Originally Posted by SuperCujo

The whole region is a shit fight and the fact that the US blindly funds and supports Israel just stirs up more hate.

Originally Posted by Jon

SuperCujo....

The 2000 year old fight.

It's easy:

USA was established by old school Christians breaking away from England.
They had a lot more in common with beliefs of their heritage- Christian based faith evolving from the Bible vs. the Qur'an.
The U.S. is getting farther away from old school founding father laws and dispositions, collectively, as the melting pot boils in the U.S. after the liberal movement in the late sixties. Times are different and we can have differences and agree to disagree now without ridicule from our next door neighbors.

I don't know if we "fund" Israel so to say, but we do sell them F-16s and munitions. We never sell any allies new shit i.e. F-22 Raptors or top end smart missiles. They get old shit so if they do anything that doesn't meet up with our national interests, fuck you.

It's not blindly funding as you put it, respectively. It's just political evolution governing our country's world influence. The far right is hard core Israeli biased. Some of our hard core left countrymen are now backing Hamas and the Islamic Resistance Movement.

No matter what side you believe in, the fighting is fucked and been going on for TWO MILLENNIUM. Now its just the same bullshit.
Except we have to worry about NUKES now. The wrong fucker gets the right gun and the whole world blowes the fuck up.

We gave Israel nukes already. Iran doesn't even back Hamas even though that Hamas hates Israel. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called Israel a stinking rotten corpse. Korea has the Nukes, Iran has good missiles. Does Iran want nuclear bomb capacity or already have it right under our noses? You think it out. How should the world protect itself? Is the U.S. responsible for keeping that shit out of Irans hands? Does the U.S. have the capacity to prevent this? Regan dealt with a similar situation with success. The sad realization is that it wont go away until we blow each other or the whole world up or just sing that Coca Cola song from the 80's and hope for the best.

Snoop Dog: "6,000,000 ways to die.... Chose One."

DaveNJ:

Originally Posted by Mattman

All very well put.

Some other interesting talking points ....
-the Jewish settlements on land "belonging" to Palestinians are still there in spite of US resolutions, and were usually the targets for missiles before the ceasefire and after its cessation.
- much of the Israeli Army is Russian. They were immigrants fleeing the post-soviet mess looking for a better life. The Palestinians were born there and their children have been born into refugee camps in some of the most crowded and inhumain conditions in the world. And now they are imprisoned without even medical aid (humanitarian corridor opened by Israel? how generous!)
- it was widely reported, although officially denied, that Cheyney had OKed Israeli military action in advance
- Israel have been bombing administration and security force "targets" as well as the "terrorists". All police stations were levelled in the first 48 hours including one that was celebrating a passing out ceremony of cadets, killing 40 of them
- US have vetoed UN sanctions against Israel that would have allowed aid.
- Palestinians elected leaders from Hamas. A sign that the majority of Palestinians believe Hamas are the best group to defend their remaining land.

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

1. Those police officers were members of Hamas with guns. "Security forces" were used to overthrow Abbas in 2006, and many moonlight for other parts of Hamas' organization. Hamas is at war with Israel. These were Hamas members with guns. That's a military target. Unless you believe that Hamas police would not engage in combat, which they have clearly done before, there's no demarcation here.

2. Palestinians elected Hamas, but Hamas ousted Fatah from Gaza. The Palestinians are in a state of civil war. It's not as simple as the party with the most votes leads. There's factionalism down to the family clan level. That's why organizing the Palestinians is so difficult. Israel doesn't have one negotiating partner, they have Abbas and they have other groups that are at war with it.

3. Israel has plenty of ex-Russians. So what? A citizen of a nation is not necessarily born there. In our Civil War many Union soldiers were German or Irish immigrants fighting men with long ties to their respective southern states. A citizen is a citizen. Nations can enact different immigration policies if they so choose.

I also notice you overlook that Israel was built on approximately one million Jewish immigrants from Arab nations over the years 1948-1957 who were illegally expelled and dispossessed of their property just as much if not more so than the Palestinians. Where is your call for their reparations?

It's not as simple as "this land was my grandfather's, kind of". Land claims can go even further back than that. Do Jews who were expelled centuries ago have a claim? If not, why do Palestinians? What we have here is two groups of people that need two states. Israel needs to halt settlement in the West Bank and probably retract some of them as a good faith gesture.

However, it takes two to tango. The Palestinians need to get their shit together and get one government to represent them. That government needs to recognize Israel's right to exist and come to the bargaining table for peace.

Until then, more war, and it's going to hurt the Palestinians a lot more than the Israelis.

Oh, and this blind funding shit is just wrong. America funds Egypt's regime and sends them F-16's, too, Egypt just uses them to prop up their corrupt regime whereas Israel uses them on terrorists.