[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by batlash

Actually, if you read on - he stated that if he found an establishment that did "mistreat" their employees by not satisfying the minimum standards set by law, that he'd stop frequenting there as a matter of principle.

As for your point of "if people still go there, they must have corrected the problem" - you could not be more wrong. Wal-Mart has a long and documented history of not exactly always being "fair" with it's employees, and people STILL shop there, and make the corporation even more money to add to it's coffers.

Yes, I know he said he'd stop going on principle. But I find his principles questionable, and I directly referred to that part of his paragraph in my post. I saw he said it, and addressed it. I guess you can't read.

As far as the Wal-Mart thing goes, that's totally not applicable. Wal-Mart does not have a system that can be fixed by the customer at the time of transaction. And my point wasn't that shitty people wouldn't fill his place, my point was that, if all people like this asshole were removed, the restaurant industry would either sustain its faulty system on the people who are willing to tip consistently and properly, or it would fail and the prices would be raised. There are only good consequences from assholes quitting eating out, is the point.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Okay, that's sound logic. I've already said that I would not patronize any place that paid it's waiters less than minimum wage, but okay, let's go on. Let's pretend I never said that for the sake of argument. Which is what you seem to have done anyway.

Hey, I know you fucking said that. But you added douchey addendums about how you'd be depriving people of tips. I was clarifying that, if you did stop, there would be absolutely zero consequences. No one would miss your money.

But furthermore, you know it is customary to tip. You know the assumed amount is deducted from paychecks. The wait staff is there expecting tips. You know this, but you have no problem dicking them over simply because some part of the transaction was left optional, so you're going to hold that over their heads. You're supposed to pay it, regardless of minimum wage or not, end of story.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I'm still only just as guilty as the waiter is for choosing to operate within the system, and thusly helping it to keep going. I'm as guilty as anyone who wears Nike, knowing that they're being made in Chinese sweat shops.

WRONG.

Another example of comparing this to another matter that cannot be solved in the transaction itself. If, when you bought the shoe, you could pay additional money to cause the person who made the shoe to receive a fair wage, then that situation is applicable. I agree sweat shops are bad, and buying Nike makes people guilty, but in this situation you are more guilty. Not just as.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I'm as guilty as everyone who eats meat and poultry, knowing that the squalor and cruelty those animals are subjected to would be considered illegal and morally reprehensible if they were pets. I hope you're not wearing nikes right now you self-righteous hypocrite. Everyone who eats at a restaurant that pays less than minumum wages is helping perpetuate the system, and punishing themselves and everyone else for it.

And now you get desperate for examples and try to turn things on me.

First of all, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ANIMALS. Fucking idiot. Are humans the same as animals? Fuck animals.

Secondly, no, I don't have Nike. Kind of jumped the hypocrite gun there kind of quickly.

Again, you're protesting to paying a fee which would be included in your bill if you did not pay it. This is not the same as Wal-Mart or a sweat shop. It would be the same if everyone else was voluntarily paying the people who made their shoes the difference between their real wage and a proper wage, and some jackfuck comes in and decides, since it is not required of him, he will refuse to pay the difference.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Except in those other cases, the victims are forced into it by a system or a culture that grants them no other choice. Whereas waiters choose their lot, probably make more than I did when I was working 3 years ago, and yet somehow still deserve tips or you're an asshole.

Oh, okay, because you had a little bit of a hard stretch, everybody should be happy with getting paid that much? Why do you deserve getting paid any more now, then? You should have the difference in income between now and three years ago deducted, because you chose your lot and I hardly see how you deserve any more.

And again, waiters choose their lot because the ability to rectify the situation is in the customers' hands. They trust that people will do the right thing. Apparently not, as you've demonstrated.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I think teachers should be paid more too, the system grossly undervalues their service. I'll sign any petition you want, but I'm not going to slip everyone a 50 every time I go to a PTA meeting.

Right, because you want it dragged from your paycheck kicking and screaming.

You'll sign any petition because you'll disagree with a faulty system in theory, but when it comes down to your wallet you make nothing but selfish decisions, and you must be forced to fork over money you say people deserve.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I understand the situation, and I do what I can in all four situations, but I'm not going to be told I have to help someone out, even when I can't personally afford it. I can help someone at my own expense, which is what tipping is, but don't tell me I have to do it or I'm an asshole. That's not fair. I do try to help waiters, I do try to do what I can to counter the system, but at the same time, I'm not going to deny myself everything I love in life for every cause, every time, and I'm not going to feel like an asshole when I allow myself to drop the ball every now and again.

You're being purposefully dense here if you're trying to paint this picture as a choice between asshole or tipper. There are TWO good choices, as I've already stated, and you've chosen to ignore: go and tip, OR don't go at all.

What's more, being unable to go to a restaurant when you can't pay a tip is giving up everything you love in life? Shut the fuck up. You're a gigantic asshole.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I'm fine with a raise in prices. The waiter should be getting paid his wage, and tips should be additional. And in a lot of cases that's how it is, and no, I don't know the wages of ever server every where I eat, but that goes both ways.

Again, you are okay with the right thing if it is forced upon you. Otherwise, fuck everybody, you have to have someone wait on you and then get paid shit.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Does everyone agree that there's no obligation to tip a waiter that does get paid a proper wage? And if the average of all my tipping and lack thereof evens out to within acceptable amounts, am I still an asshole?

1) No, you're obligated. Fuck you. You don't know what they're getting paid, and you're just going to be coming up with bullshit reasons to not tip.
2) Yes, you're an asshole. You're justifying not tipping.

Originally Posted by batlash

Actually, the way for the system to correct itself is NOT raising prices, but the government levying heavy fines & penalties against companies that do not respect that minimum labour, health & safety standards - and close the fuckers down if they have to. As a consumer, you can complain to the government, as well as boycott such establishments until they do the right thing. Employees could report things anonymously as well.

that all being said, while I do feel for waiters - there are a HELL of a lot worse jobs to have out there, where you're treated even worse. Waiters aren't even close to being the worst treated.

Oooooh, our government has to oversee every single fucking restaurant rather than just reprinting some menus? Shut the fuck up.

Originally Posted by batlash

I wish you had said that 10 pages ago. That's brilliant.

You know, because teachers have the same lifestyle and wage as waiters. It's so totally the same. Oh yeah, and it's also extremely customary to give teachers $50s.

Oh wait.