32: Godless

[myq]

Originally Posted by DJQuad

Were you there for eons to know that the sun will rise? What if it has only risen for the 34 years you've been alive? The only reason you think that it's been longer than that is in fact, faith.

Whether faith is based on so-called science or so-called a belief in some sort of God, it's still faith.

You are right, I have only seen 30+ years of the sun rising, and beyond that I have to believe that other people have seen the sun rise.

But I still hold that believing based on one's own observations is belief of a different kind than believing based on NO observations.

Do you disagree?

I'm not saying you're wrong to use the word faith, just that it makes sense to differentiate between belief based on something observable and belief based on something NOT observable.

(And for the sake of this argument, eliminate "eons" from my initial statement. I'll stick with days and years.)

[DJQuad]

Originally Posted by myq

You are right, I have only seen 30+ years of the sun rising, and beyond that I have to believe that other people have seen the sun rise.

But I still hold that believing based on one's own observations is belief of a different kind than believing based on NO observations.

Do you disagree?

I do agree with part of what you're saying, but I don't agree with "no observations" part. You mentioned that you "have to believe" others, but isn't that the entire definitions of both faith and belief?

Lemme give you a quick summary of where I'm coming from if you haven't heard episode #49. I dove off the end of a lake dock (Keet keeps thinking it was a 120' cliff in Mexico or something..lol). After seeing a friend dive in the exact same spot that I did, I found out pretty quickly the water was actually only about 3' deep after slamming into it, breaking my neck.

I was underwater for about 4 minutes or so, hoping someone would notice even though I was conscious the whole time. I was trying to hold my breath but I knew I had to breathe. Each breath took in more water.

Near death, I eventually passed out and thank God because that is one of the most horrifying things anyone could ever experience.

You know how some say there's a bright light? There definitely is. Some go toward it, some don't. Some have the "my life flashed before my eyes". Some have visions of God, some of past loved ones, etc. I'm sure you've heard it all and I have no doubt those were real to them.

I saw a bright light and I was like, so this is what everyone is talking about. I told the light that's ridiculous and had a pretty in-depth "talk" with the light. I won't bore you with the details (unless you want to know..heh) but at the end of it, it told me to go back and live a positive life. I woke up in ICU 2 days later.

Not mentioning the details doesn't give the gravity of our "talk" justice but in a nutshell, I discovered the differences between science vs religion, evolution vs creationism, etc.

Now, was that an act of God or the chemicals in my brain calming me before my body died?

[myq]

Lemme give you a quick summary of where I'm coming from if you haven't heard episode #49. I dove off the end of a lake dock (Keet keeps thinking it was a 120' cliff in Mexico or something..lol). After seeing a friend dive in the exact same spot that I did, I found out pretty quickly the water was actually only about 3' deep after slamming into it, breaking my neck.

I was underwater for about 4 minutes or so, hoping someone would notice even though I was conscious the whole time. I was trying to hold my breath but I knew I had to breathe. Each breath took in more water.

Near death, I eventually passed out and thank God because that is one of the most horrifying things anyone could ever experience.

You know how some say there's a bright light? There definitely is. Some go toward it, some don't. Some have the "my life flashed before my eyes". Some have visions of God, some of past loved ones, etc. I'm sure you've heard it all and I have no doubt those were real to them.

I saw a bright light and I was like, so this is what everyone is talking about. I told the light that's ridiculous and had a pretty in-depth "talk" with the light. I won't bore you with the details (unless you want to know..heh) but at the end of it, it told me to go back and live a positive life. I woke up in ICU 2 days later.

Not mentioning the details doesn't give the gravity of our "talk" justice but in a nutshell, I discovered the differences between science vs religion, evolution vs creationism, etc.

Now, was that an act of God or the chemicals in my brain calming me before my body died?

That is an amazing story that I didn't know. I would be very interested to hear more about the conversation that you had, if you would like to share it.

I once heard a story on NPR once about someone who was researching part of the brain that he was saying had evolved to believe in a higher power, I believe. (I believe!)

I do believe, based on my understanding of things that I've read and heard, that it was indeed chemicals in your brain in action. Obviously you have your experience and your beliefs, and I hope my words are not an affront. (In one reading of the situation, if there is no God, it's a pretty incredible thing that went on in your own head. You have God in your head.)

I've done mushrooms and had my own conversations with self/other/universal forces. I've also believed in higher powers to different extents at different points in my life. Not saying our conditions and situations are comparable necessarily, but I certainly know what it's like.

I appreciate what you're saying as well, and sincerely, very sorry for what happened to you, hope you're as well as can be now, and do please feel free to share more of the story if you would like...

In conclusion (for now, heading off to shows shortly for the evening)...

Originally Posted by DJQuad

I do agree with part of what you're saying, but I don't agree with "no observations" part. You mentioned that you "have to believe" others, but isn't that the entire definitions of both faith and belief?

I think this is one again a semantic discrepancy. That "have to" is sort of a trick.

Number one, when I said "take away eons" of the sun rising, I am only depending on my own experience. I see the sun out most every day, so I expect it to be out most every day. The fact that I ALSO believe the sun was out for years before I existed doesn't have to factor in.

And that's a microcosm for the scientific method in general. I am not a scientist myself, but it IS possible for me to go into a lab and replicate any experiment that's been done in the past, if I learn how. I've taken some classes where I had to learn how to replicate and reason through mathematical proofs that had been proven before, that now I could do for myself.

Science and mathematics DON'T have to be taken on faith. The whole point of science is that it can be replicated, and if it can't, that calls into question the relevant hypothesis.

That said, I DO believe that scientists know what they're doing, without my actually going ahead and checking their work. But also, I have their results. TVs, the internet, airplanes, lightbulbs, etc. These are all working examples demonstrating science's effectiveness. I don't take on faith that they work. I can observe that they work.

The same way I observe the sun out most every day.

[DJQuad]

Originally Posted by myq

That is an amazing story that I didn't know. I would be very interested to hear more about the conversation that you had, if you would like to share it.

After I dove in, I heard the crunch of my neck breaking as my head hit the bottom of the lake mixed with a tremendous slam. The slam was like someone hitting you out of nowhere. Just BOOM followed shortly by what the fuck was that. After that though, I knew something was wrong before I even tried to my arms or legs, which were paralyzed. I knew something was majorly fucking wrong.

Before my lifeless body even floated to the surface I technically drowned by being underwater for that long. I was consciously hoping that it would float up faster so my friends could see me, but after minutes I suppose they realized "oh fuck" something's wrong.

My friend Tyler pulled my body up on to his 4x4 white foam raft. That was who I was going to swim toward after diving off the dock. The first thing I sort of gurgled to him with water in my lungs was "I'm not kidding". He literally saved my life.

Tyler lives just down the street, and was my best friend. He came to ICU a lot to be sure I was ok, and I haven't seen him since. Remember, this was in May of 1991 and we were 18. I'm sure this whole thing was a total mind fuck for him and I don't blame him for not being able to handle it.

So anyway, after the crunch I knew I was immediately fucked. Broken neck, underwater, can't move, can't breathe. So many thoughts raced through my head. I'll name a few main things but believe me it's just a fraction of everything that did. That plus even remembering things 23+ years later. I suppose people call them flashbacks which seem as real as reality itself.

I remember barely being able to lift my neck. Keep in mind I was knocked delirious after slamming my head that hard into the bottom of the lake. I guess I was trying to find light to figure out which direction was the surface. I saw a bright light as I was breathing water. I knew it was the sun at first.

Of course it was the sun. what else could it be right? This is where it gets so damn weird I know. The sun smacked my face while I was underwater. I'll attempt to tell you some conversations we had.

"Please God help me! Why are you doing this to me??"
"I'm helping you"
"What the fuck! How is allowing me to drown helping?"
"You aren't going to drown"
"What the hell do you want from me?"
"After your rehab, go to the house you grew up in and find the piece of paper Sarah hid between the rotten logs"

As I'm typing this, I'm realizing how fucked up those visions and the ones after it were. I could tell you the rest of what I did but what the fuck for. It's my problem to deal with.

[Scumhook]

I'm loving this thread.

As I express myself visually, I went looking for a "I like the direction this thread is heading" pic.

Google returned the following image:


God may or may not exist, but I'm somewhat concerned about what Google thinks about me...

[Bucho]

This is the best G-d-themed thread anywhere in the whole g-ddamn internet. It's almost as if an intelligent discussion can be had about the subject. This is an unprecedented level of discourse.

I mean, we're almost 100 posts in and nobody has even bought up Hitler yet? This can't be real.

[Scumhook]

Fuck you bucho

[adrian]

Scanning through this lot, there still seems to be this daft conception that the bible gave us a set of moral codes?
Anyone who read the book, will know that jesus was crucified between a coupe of thieves, and if they read the bit before that they will know that the mob were given the choice of releasing Barrabas who was a murderer.
Suggesting that thou shalt not steal - or kill, were two concepts that were already part of the legal system pre-dating christianity.

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by adrian

Scanning through this lot, there still seems to be this daft conception that the bible gave us a set of moral codes?
Anyone who read the book, will know that jesus was crucified between a coupe of thieves, and if they read the bit before that they will know that the mob were given the choice of releasing Barrabas who was a murderer.
Suggesting that thou shalt not steal - or kill, were two concepts that were already part of the legal system pre-dating christianity.

scan deeper adrian

the bible does have a moral coe d in ti

but this thread is aboud whether god exisists and all that origin o f the uhniverse shit.

wake up man. fucking wake up and smell the aromaa of the newworld order baby

[myq]

Originally Posted by DJQuad

Of course it was the sun. what else could it be right? This is where it gets so damn weird I know. The sun smacked my face while I was underwater. I'll attempt to tell you some conversations we had.

"Please God help me! Why are you doing this to me??"
"I'm helping you"
"What the fuck! How is allowing me to drown helping?"
"You aren't going to drown"
"What the hell do you want from me?"
"After your rehab, go to the house you grew up in and find the piece of paper Sarah hid between the rotten logs"

As I'm typing this, I'm realizing how fucked up those visions and the ones after it were. I could tell you the rest of what I did but what the fuck for. It's my problem to deal with.

I certainly don't want to cause you any problems or additional strife in re-living any of this, if it's difficult. Of course, don't share anything you don't want to for any reason.
I will say that it's an extremely intriguing story that I'm happy to hear as much of as you want to share though. You don't have to not share on MY account. On your own, sure. I don't want to seem like a gawker looking at a roadside accident when you'd rather not have that happen.
But your experience sounds unique, so if you want to share more, please feel free to. But of course, not obligated. Thanks for saying as much as you have already.

Originally Posted by Bucho

This is the best G-d-themed thread anywhere in the whole g-ddamn internet. It's almost as if an intelligent discussion can be had about the subject. This is an unprecedented level of discourse.

Fag.
Wheeee!
Also, quick question for you: do you have a specific reason for not typing "god"? Are you a believer? (My understanding of why Jews don't write the word out is because you're not supposed to destroy the name of god, so if you don't fully WRITE the whole name, you can't accidentally destroy it. Is that right? If so, is that why you're doing it? Or if not, why not?)