32: Godless

[DJQuad]

Originally Posted by MichaelApproved

The "word of God" is full of inconsistencies, contradictions and demonstrably false information. It's an easier point to make and it's just as impactful.

Well that could be said about any historical document. Things like this -

The Bible begins with the creation of the universe: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1 NIV). This single verse describes the actual transformation of invisible energy into all of the fundamental physical matter (as summed up in Albert Einstein's famous E=mc2 equation) that would be formed into stars, planets and everything else - including us. Scientists now estimate that the great event took place approximately 15 billion years ago.
Stars The next verse describes the earth after its creation, long after the creation of the universe: "Now the earth was [or became] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters" (Genesis 1:2 NIV). Scientists estimate the age of the earth to be about 5 billion years old - leaving an estimated 10 billion years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

There has been a tremendous amount of disagreement between science and religion, each side armed with its own obvious facts to refute the other. People of science and religion need not disagree so often if they would realize that their different observations are the result of each looking only at opposite sides of the same coin. The contradictory evidence is actually an illusion, caused by omission, which virtually guarantees that alone, either scientific theory or religious doctrine can only be half-right in their understanding of the creation of the universe or the origin of humanity. Together however, the picture is complete and harmonious.

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by DJQuad

Well that could be said about any historical document. Things like this -

I'm not sure what point you're making with this. Are you agreeing that religious text is full of nonsense or are you actually trying to make the point of the paragraph you quoted and say that the Bible actually coincides with the scientific understanding of the world?

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by wibskey

Most historians agree that Christ was a real person that started a very real religion.

Originally Posted by DJQuad

"Do (most?) atheists believe that Jesus existed?"

Discussion about whether Jesus existed: Slagathor91 comments on I am Reza Aslan, scholar of religions, author of ZEALOT, and (gasp!) recent FOX news guest - AMA

[DJQuad]

Originally Posted by MichaelApproved

I'm not sure what point you're making with this. Are you agreeing that religious text is full of nonsense or are you actually trying to make the point of the paragraph you quoted and say that the Bible actually coincides with the scientific understanding of the world?

Both I suppose.. heh.

I just don't understand how atheists can be cocky (cocky may not be the right word, maybe confident) enough to believe that deities of any kind simply don't exist. At best, aren't most atheists actually apatheists?

Apatheists understand that religions could provide comfort for people, but they don't need religion to be content with the morality of their lives and therefore live without it.

Apatheists aren't atheists, they're agnostic.

I really don't mean to offend but when I hear that someone is an atheist the first thing that jumps into my head is that they're an ignorant, particularly, the outspoken ones.

Who are we to believe that within our 70 or so years on this tiny spec of a planet near a tiny spec of a star that there is no God? It's beyond our comprehension to even understand that the known universe is over 13 BILLION years old.

To believe that, it's called faith, whether you believe in science or religion. There's truly room for both IMO.

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by DJQuad

Both I suppose.. heh.

Well, that argument is loaded with so many inaccuracies it's hard to get into it on a forum. Rather than debunk the claim that the Bible can be explained in a scientific way, I'll say this. There is no need to try and explain the events of the Bible in a scientific manner because the events of the Bible never happened.

I've seen ridiculous "scientific investigations" that try to show how Moses could have actually crossed the Red Sea due to low tides and what not. First, those investigations use pseudoscience, not real science. Second, Moses never crossed the Red Sea. It's a made up story. Investigation over.

Originally Posted by DJQuad

I just don't understand how atheists can be cocky (cocky may not be the right word, maybe confident) enough to believe that deities of any kind simply don't exist. At best, aren't most atheists actually apatheists?

Apatheists understand that religions could provide comfort for people, but they don't need religion to be content with the morality of their lives and therefore live without it.

Apatheists aren't atheists, they're agnostic.

There are many variations of atheists/agnostics. Check this link out Strong Atheism vs. Weak Atheism: What’s the Difference?

Originally Posted by DJQuad

I really don't mean to offend but when I hear that someone is an atheist the first thing that jumps into my head is that they're an ignorant, particularly, the outspoken ones.

Who are we to believe that within our 70 or so years on this tiny spec of a planet near a tiny spec of a star that there is no God? It's beyond our comprehension to even understand that the known universe is over 13 BILLION years old.

To believe that, it's called faith, whether you believe in science or religion. There's truly room for both IMO.

I can safely say that all religions are wrong because they are works of fiction written by humans.

God is a completely made up concept. There is no God just like there is no tooth fairy. Both are completely made up concepts.

There is no such thing as the tooth fairy.
There is no such thing as god.

Both of those statements are just as easy to say. They are also equally accurate.

It's not cocky to say that a completely made up concept is not real.

Originally Posted by DJQuad

Who are we to believe that within our 70 or so years on this tiny spec of a planet near a tiny spec of a star that there is no God?

We are people who have the tools of critical thought and the scientific method at our disposal. Those are powerful tools that help us make powerful observations that reach out beyond our tiny spec of a star.

[DJQuad]

First off, I hope you're not thinking I'm some die-hard Christian bible-thumper, I'm definetly not. Like I said, I'm an Apatheist.

I've seen ridiculous "scientific investigations" that try to show how Moses could have actually crossed the Red Sea due to low tides and what not. First, those investigations use pseudoscience, not real science. Second, Moses never crossed the Red Sea. It's a made up story. Investigation over.

I don't subscribe to the notion of "investigation over". Hell YES it's unlikely that it happened based on our understanding, but to rule it out based on something you simply read is as ignorant as the ones that believe that happened.

Apatheists aren't atheists, they're agnostic.
There are many variations of atheists/agnostics. Check this link out Strong Atheism vs. Weak Atheism: What’s the Difference?

That's excellent and a very good read. The thing that most stuck out was "All atheists are weak atheists because all atheists, by definition, lack belief in the existence of gods. Some atheists, however, are also strong atheists because they take the extra step of denying the existence of at least some gods."

That extra step seems so blind and ignorant.

I can safely say that all religions are wrong because they are works of fiction written by humans.

You believe that and at the same time you put your faith into science books. Those books were also written by humans. Believing Jesus walked on water is as dumb as the apple falling on Newton's head to discover gravity.

God is a completely made up concept. There is no God just like there is no tooth fairy. Both are completely made up concepts.

There is no such thing as the tooth fairy.
There is no such thing as god.

Both of those statements are just as easy to say. They are also equally accurate.

There is no such thing as gravity based on scientific research about string theory.
Science believes there are multi-verses and parerell universes, even though there is no proof of anything outside our known universe.

Critical thinking "scientists" suggest that there's no "God" yet they believe in something they can't see nor understand.

[Metzican]

Not to dig into this conversation to deeply. But there is a major difference between a theory like gravity and a law. Besides this there is a reason for scientific theory. Fine lets ignore the tooth fairy. Now clifford the big red dog actually happened 2k years ago and we should study it like its non-fiction. That is the thought process behind the bible. just because parts of it seem possible does not mean it actually happened.

[Scumhook]

Loving this thread.

On a related note, I've just listened cHemmo's Papa don't preach eps. In the 1st one, Ron talks about a life altering supernatural experience he had, which was witnessed by a 3rd party.

He may be lying, or he may be wrong; however I don't think so.

As others have said in this thread, you can't prove a negative so I have a hard time believing in the lack of a spirit realm. Religion is bullshit, and the various texts were written by men, however experiences like Ron's are hard to just brush off.

I'm not saying I believe that Jesus literally appeared to him, however it may have been another entity manifesting itself in a culturally relevant form.

Or maybe the LSD caught up with him. But the LSD doesn't explain his companion witnessing the stranger...


Re the tooth fairy being fake - sure. However that doesn't mean that the tooth fairy story wasn't based on a real being...

[Abby]

To be SO sure science is the only truth, and there is no possible way for God to exsist sounds a little like faith to me. Science does not hold all the answers... at least not yet. From what I have read, science is making new discoveries all the time.
How are you so sure you are right.

I am a Christian. I believe in God.
I hate to admit it, but I know I might be wrong.

EDIT: Oops! This forum got longer when I wasn't looking, and you already addressed this! But p.s. thanks for still replying to everyone! I am loving this discussion.

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by Abby

To be SO sure science is the only truth, and there is no possible way for God to exsist sounds a little like faith to me. Science does not hold all the answers... at least not yet. From what I have read, science is making new discoveries all the time.
How are you so sure you are right.

Science is a tool used to discover the truth.