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Old 08-09-2013, 06:59 AM   #181 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by myq View Post
Proving a negative is impossible.
I do not oppose agreement towards the antithesis of disagreement towards the direction of your statement.




What the fuck am I doing????

Matching wordplay with Myq????


I may as well challenge Satan to an arse pitchforking contest!!!

Or, given the nature of this thread, challenge Stan to an arse... etc etc
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Old 08-09-2013, 04:29 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by myq View Post
Proving a negative is impossible.
I don't see it as a negative though. At this point there is absolutely no scientific reason for the big bang, nor can something (time, space, matter) be created from nothing.

I'm not referring to evolution or anything like that because evolution itself is an ongoing constant filled with constant variables, I'm referring to what created the absolute beginning.

As a space science dork, in my mind that's "proof enough" that something had to create it. Science hasn't either proven or disproven a creator. Until it does, if ever, I believe that some sort of divine creator is behind it.

I linked this earlier in the thread - did you happen to watch it?

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Old 08-09-2013, 05:19 PM   #183 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
I don't see it as a negative though. At this point there is absolutely no scientific reason for the big bang, nor can something (time, space, matter) be created from nothing.
You are incorrect. There is a massive amount of scientific reason that backs up the Big Bang model of the universe. It is a working model, so there are still adjustments being made to it, but there is a ton of evidence for that model. This is a fundamentally accepted notion. To say there is absolutely no scientific reason for the Big Bang is absurd. With respect, please raise the discussion to a higher level. Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No credible cosmologist is saying something is created from nothing. Those are your words. The scientific understanding is that something can never be nothing. Energy changes form but it never goes away. Energy can never be nothing. Nothing can never be something. The energy was always there.

The "nothing" that you're referring to is a misunderstanding of the Big Bang. What was before the Big Bang is, as of yet, unknown. There are ideas but little evidence to back them up, if any. Some people misunderstand that to mean there was nothing before the Big Bang. That is incorrect. We simply do not have that information yet. Not knowing does not equal "nothing".

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I'm not referring to evolution or anything like that because evolution itself is an ongoing constant filled with constant variables, I'm referring to what created the absolute beginning.
The Big Bang could be far from the absolute beginning. There could have been countless Big Bangs before the one that created our current universe, we just don't know yet.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
As a space science dork, in my mind that's "proof enough" that something had to create it. Science hasn't either proven or disproven a creator. Until it does, if ever, I believe that some sort of divine creator is behind it.
Part of the continuing debate in this discussion is do to our differing standards of what constitutes proof. Another part is that you're misunderstanding some concepts, like the one above regarding Big Bang. Dig deeper into these topics. You have the ability to understand these issues on a much higher level.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
I linked this earlier in the thread - did you happen to watch it?

No. I stopped watching that series because it seemed sensational. If you'd like to make a point based on that specific episode, pick a segment and let us know what the time stamp is so we can discuss that specific topic directly.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:40 PM   #184 (permalink)
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This is a fundamentally accepted notion. To say there is absolutely no scientific reason for the Big Bang is absurd.
There is no reason, only theories by some on how it may have happened. What I was referring to was before the big bang. Even the scientists that have a strong belief in singularity have no explanation.

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No credible cosmologist is saying something is created from nothing. Those are your words.
Here you go.. One of many.

Quote:
“I was sharply critical of the ekpyrotic model,” said Andreas Albrecht, a cosmologist at the University of California at Davis. “I really do think it’s a step backwards. We could just declare that this is the state of the universe at the beginning. ... It’s a really hugely ambitious thing to do what inflation (theory) does, and it’s actually amazing that we can have something that can do that. So if we can do that, I don’t want to back off from that.”
More at Big Bang or Steady State? (Cosmology: Ideas)

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There are ideas but little evidence to back them up, if any. Some people misunderstand that to mean there was nothing before the Big Bang. That is incorrect. We simply do not have that information yet. Not knowing does not equal "nothing".
We actually agree on most of this stuff. Really the only thing I disagree with is not knowing doesn't equal nothing. There "could have" been countless big bangs, there could have been only 1 that makes up the big bang / big crunch theory, there could be only 1 which is expanding and will eventually expand so much that everything turns to darkness and ice, there could be be countless multiverses, there could be string theory, and there could be some sort of creator.

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The Big Bang could be far from the absolute beginning. There could have been countless Big Bangs before the one that created our current universe, we just don't know yet.
Yep, there could be. Do you honestly think that science will ever answer that? I believe that it never will and therefore, something beyond our comprehension, reasoning, mathematics equations, created it.

The weirdest thing about this is, even if it is answered, that in itself could be God.

Quote:
No. I stopped watching that series because it seemed sensational. If you'd like to make a point based on that specific episode, pick a segment and let us know what the time stamp is so we can discuss that specific topic directly.
Oh I agree, I stopped watching it long ago because of that very reason. That episode however was very early on, I think it was one of the first in the first season.

It's really hard to tell you specific times because it's riddled with varying beliefs, rhetorical questions from scientists, religious scholars who don't believe in creationism, scientists that do, etc.

C'mon it's only like 40 minutes.. Grab a beer and pop some popcorn. hehe
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:57 PM   #185 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelApproved View Post
If you'd like to make a point based on that specific episode, pick a segment and let us know what the time stamp is so we can discuss that specific topic directly.
0:00 - 0:40
1:40 - 2:50
3:41 - 4:24
6:49 - 8:34

And so on. It's hard to pick 1 specific segment.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:08 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
There is no reason, only theories by some on how it may have happened. What I was referring to was before the big bang. Even the scientists that have a strong belief in singularity have no explanation.
Oh. I think I misunderstood you. My apologies. I thought you were doubting the scientific evidence behind the Big Bang itself, as if there was no evidence behind that theory. It seems like you're questioning the state of things just before the Big Bang. Is that correct?

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
Here you go.. One of many.
I have no idea what that person was saying.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
That is a very long page. What part of that page did you want me to read?

Regardless, I think you're trying to counter my point and say that something can come from nothing. This is not possible according to Conservation of Energy

Quote:
Conservation of energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.
The energy that caused the Big Bang came from somewhere/something. We are still trying to figure out what that somewhere/something was. It did not come from nothing.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
We actually agree on most of this stuff. Really the only thing I disagree with is not knowing doesn't equal nothing. There "could have" been countless big bangs, there could have been only 1 that makes up the big bang / big crunch theory, there could be only 1 which is expanding and will eventually expand so much that everything turns to darkness and ice, there could be be countless multiverses, there could be string theory, and there could be some sort of creator.
Two problems.
  1. One of these things is not like the other: The first parts of the "could have" list have at least some scientific bases to them. The part about a creator has no scientific bases to it.
  2. Leap of faith: In our discussions, you make the leap from "could have" a creator to probably have a creator.
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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
Do you honestly think that science will ever answer that?
Yes. Just look at the advancements we've made in the last 100 years. We've been learning about the universe in leaps and bounds.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
I believe that it never will and therefore, something beyond our comprehension, reasoning, mathematics equations, created it.

The weirdest thing about this is, even if it is answered, that in itself could be God.
Leap.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
Oh I agree, I stopped watching it long ago because of that very reason. That episode however was very early on, I think it was one of the first in the first season.

It's really hard to tell you specific times because it's riddled with varying beliefs, rhetorical questions from scientists, religious scholars who don't believe in creationism, scientists that do, etc.

C'mon it's only like 40 minutes.. Grab a beer and pop some popcorn. hehe
It makes my head hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
0:00 - 0:40
1:40 - 2:50
3:41 - 4:24
6:49 - 8:34

And so on. It's hard to pick 1 specific segment.
Pick one segment and make a point with regards to it. Start the discussion.

Last edited by MichaelApproved; 08-09-2013 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Removed 100%
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Old 08-10-2013, 04:44 PM   #187 (permalink)
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It seems like you're questioning the state of things just before the Big Bang. Is that correct?
Yeah basically. It's a mind-fuck because the Big Bang created time, so there was no "before". If space is infinite, that would mean there are infinite Big Bangs and light from those would never reach us.

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The energy that caused the Big Bang came from somewhere/something. We are still trying to figure out what that somewhere/something was. It did not come from nothing.
There's no such thing as somewhere (space) or something (matter) before it because the Big Bang itself created those along with time. That's why I don't think science could ever explain it. It's sort of like an ant crawling over a round globe, if that makes sense. Even math can't explain it. We know that 1 + 1 = 2 in regards to the results, but we'll never know what 1 is.

Quote:
Pick one segment and make a point with regards to it. Start the discussion.
lol. Only 1 or 1 at a time? The latter is cool by me if that's what you meant. I guess we should start at 1:40-8:34.

Last edited by DJQuad; 08-10-2013 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:18 AM   #188 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
Yeah basically. It's a mind-fuck because the Big Bang created time, so there was no "before". If space is infinite, that would mean there are infinite Big Bangs and light from those would never reach us.
The Big Bang didn't necessarily create time, there might have been a before. I'll say it again: we don't know, yet. cosmology - Did time exist before the creation of matter in the universe? - Physics Stack Exchange

Is space infinite? We don't know, yet. Shape of the Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're giving absolute answers to questions that are still being worked on by cosmologists.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
There's no such thing as somewhere (space) or something (matter) before it because the Big Bang itself created those along with time.
You're are making statements based on generalizations of speculation. We don't know that the Big Bang created space/time. Bottom line is we don't fully understand the Big Bang, yet.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
That's why I don't think science could ever explain it.
Throughout history, there have been people who didn't think things were possible. Thanks to the advancements of science, they were.


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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
It's sort of like an ant crawling over a round globe, if that makes sense.
Using your analogy, the ant gets bigger and bigger every day.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
Even math can't explain it. We know that 1 + 1 = 2 in regards to the results, but we'll never know what 1 is.
Even math can't explain it... yet. You make it seem as if advancement of society has stopped dead in its tracks. This is not the case. We are discovering new information about the universe we live in constantly. Our knowledge and understanding is growing. It's just a matter of time.

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Originally Posted by DJQuad View Post
lol. Only 1 or 1 at a time? The latter is cool by me if that's what you meant. I guess we should start at 1:40-8:34.
One at a time so the conversation can be focused. What's your take on that segment?

Last edited by MichaelApproved; 08-11-2013 at 02:06 AM. Reason: grammar/sentence structure
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:36 PM   #189 (permalink)
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You make it seem as if advancement of society has stopped dead in its tracks. This is not the case. We are discovering new information about the universe we live in constantly. Our knowledge and understanding is growing. It's just a matter of time.
Yeah I know we're progressing, and in ways far more than ever before. In some ways I want to know the answer before I die, but I believe that it will never happen in our generation, nor in any generation after ours.

I used to think all this came from a fear of death. That may be part of it in that there is nothing after death. I don't believe there's a heaven (or hell for that matter) that we'd be conscious of after death, no reincarnation, no other places, nothing like The Matrix, just a blank nothing.

Even the scientists that theorize that only our one universe exists, that alone is 13,800,000,000 years old and our lifetimes are currently around 80 years. Whether there's a creator beyond our knowledge or not, that sucks and makes life seem completely insignificant and pointless.

Life's a bitch, I guess.

Quote:
One at a time so the conversation can be focused. What's your take on that segment?
So for the clip, the beginning I gave you really wouldn't spur much discussion that we haven't discussed already, now that I think about it.

Check out 29:28-36:49, although you may want to watch more to see what they say next. Don't tell Keet though, he'll get more paranoid about HUAR.

Through the Wormhole: Is There a Creator? (S01E01) [PT-BR] - YouTube

I know you're aware of "The Sims" theory already (as am I) but that clip really broke it down for me. Do you believe that theory at all?

The part about the rate of increase in computer power and therefore realism is bound to keep pace with that. That our real lives and virtual lives could begin to blur with increased reality. Right now we see those as just computer pixels, which could be human cells. We could be Gods of Sims, or we could Sims with a God, or we could be both many times over. That God could be just a really good programmer. We're both programmers. we code stuff, create stuff, stuff that could lead to the next programmatic generation of simulations. Are we Gods?

I know you often say "science hasn't given us the answers yet" and it normally ends the conversation right there, but in the meantime I find it fascinating to discuss this stuff.

So that's enough to chew on for now..

Last edited by DJQuad; 08-12-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 06:39 PM   #190 (permalink)
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I posted this on an Atheist Subreddit but it didn't get much response.

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So what category would you say I fall under? Here is my understanding of the terms and please correct me if any are wrong.

I'm not an Atheist because I don't believe in the position that there are absolutely no deities.

I'm certainly not a Christian or Jewish because I don't believe most things in the Bible are factual.

I'm not an Agnostic because I'm not skeptical about the existence of God. I'll explain what I mean by God below.

I'm not Apatheist because I don't have a lack of interest towards belief or disbelief of a God.

When I mean by God definitely isn't the "traditional" term. I often say God because I don't want to clarify that I mean some sort of deity, some sort of creator, an entity that should be worshipped on Sundays, and so on.

There are other terms like Agnostic Atheism, but that isn't exactly me either.

I suppose I'm some sort of Theist, if Theists don't fall under the traditional definition of believing in the traditional God.

What DO I believe in? Science. I'm sure we could get into all sorts of scientific debates about theories from scientists, physicists, cosmologists, mathematicians, etc, but I believe that "before" the Big Bang there had to be some sort of creator. I put before in quotes because it's a common theory that it created space, matter, and time itself, therefore there is no before.

I don't believe that science, as progressive and powerful as it is, could ever provide answers to whether or not there is some sort of creator, even as advanced as science is expected to progress in the future.

If I haven't been clear about my beliefs before it's clear as to what term I am, let me know.
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