1129: Cerebral

[yoav]

Originally Posted by GMan

Let me get this straight: you think i did nothing with my life but learning about Catholicism based on one forum post (admittedly a long post) where I provided some correct information about Lent--information that anyone who read the wikipedia article would know.

Then, you decide the best way to gain deep insights on the motivations of the religious is to be offensive. Is it really your experience in life that offending people is the best way to get information? Have you ever tried asking?

To answer your question: I don't feel that I've wasted my life. When you enjoy something, be it Catholicism, or Star Trek, you tend to learn more things about it. The development of Christianity really is the story of Western Civilization for the past 2000 years or so. The calendar you use is based upon it. The idioms you use (blind leading the blind, turn the other cheek, etc.) are based upon it. The classic works of western art and music are based upon it.

On top of that, I have other interests. You wouldn't know it from my original post because that was about a single topic--correcting misinformation about Lent. I could write an equally detailed post about the American Civil War, etiology of tuberculosis, or Korean food, but those topics didn't come up.

I'm sure you have some interest in your life (Phish? Photography?) that other people don't get. Hell, you've made close to a thousand posts on an internet forum for a relatively small group of people devoted to a podcast. To some, that might seem like a waste of time, but if you got something out of it, it's really not anyone else's business.

i already explained what the style of writing of your first post led me to believe.

yes i've tried asking, and as i explained it usually ends up in a very long thread or conversation. i wanted to try a different approach in this context to speed things up. you're obviously not the person you originally came off as, and not to justify an abrasive approach(it's not like me at all) but it worked out.

aligning spending time listening to katg and religion/star trek is interesting. everything i would say i get from katg(unwind/get inspiration from/etc) and the reasons i participate could be aligned with those of a person that is actively religious. that some people get those things from engaging in religion or a subculture answers a lot about motivation and puts a lot in perspective. thanks.

Originally Posted by Mattman

Knowing and believing are 2 different things. Knowing about Lent and believing in Catholicism, or Protestant Christianity are different.

I cannot understand why people who do not follow a religion vehemently attack the belief of others on these forums. Is it because our two hosts have decided to be agnostic or atheist?

As others have pointed out in this and other threads, Chemda does not know the detail of other religions but often criticises them for their ridiculousness. Strangely she still gets defensive over Judeism from time to time.

Lessons that should be learned from the forums: Displaying your knowledge to the ignorant is not appreciated by the ignorant. Displaying your ignorance with pride just makes you look pathetic.

it's not about the hosts or displaying your knowledge on a subject. knowledge and insight are very welcome. however in this particular case - for the most part, athiests and agnostics see religion as a form of slavery, that most of us had to escape from while growing up.

Chemda can't tell her parents about her life because her parents have archaic fundamental religious ideals. they don't like her boyfriend or work despite the fact that she directly enriches so many people's lives. they want her to find a jewish guy to push out some kids and stand around in the kitchen all day until it's time to clean some other room in the house. they believe it's a woman's place for no other reason than the brainwashing they them selve's received in their lives.

we look at corporations like the catholic church, the fundamental jews(making settlements), fundamental muslims(blowing them selve's up), and fundamental christians(brainwashing tribesmen, raping young boys, and then asking for donations), we look at the hate, violence, and intolerance, like the fact that gay people aren't considered human beings in the u.s.a. (land of the free) and see any propagation - even harmless religious people that just do it for the same reasons i listen to katg, as supporting, justifying, and propping up those fundamental ideals. we see the bad FAR outweigh any good, and that the number of people that draw good from it is a very small percentage of people that engage in it. we also feel that the same way you can draw out the parables from shakespear or mark twain, you can do the same from religious texts without physically engaging in the culture, although from what i've read and learned having to go to a religious school growing up religion contains far more violence and racism than moral lessons, and shouldn't be considered a practical source of moral guidance for lack of quality of said morals.

the vast majority of people who engage in say christianity believe they earth and universe are only 6000 years old. they don't study the religion. most of them have never even thought of questioning it. to paraphrase keith "you don't believe in jesus? LOOK AROUND!". religion is a cult, and while all cults are built on noble roots(love your neighbours, don't kill people, etc.) in practice they are handed down without thought and acted out as(hate your neighbours one house down, and kill everyone who disagrees with or looks different than you).

the point isn't that i listen to katg for the same reasons people engage in religion, the point is that religion exploits those same basic human needs to cultivate an environment of hate, violence, and perpetuate it's bologne to the masses so that money is diffused up to a small group of people making up the story. take scientology, the pope, the dalai llama, or those guys who yell through your tv at 3am pretend healing pretend sick people so you send them a dollar.

[JSZilla]

Originally Posted by rodimusprime

The entire idea of Lent seems silly and cultish to me. Glad I don't have to deal with that shit.

Welcome to the most varied process yet exactly the same basis of practice damn near every religion has. Ritual. Baptism is a rather odd one to me but so is putting ashes on your forehead...What if you sweat?

Theology is fun. Whether you follow it or not. Atleast the subject is to me and I'm an athie....Er...I think I will call myself a Pastafarian. Just cuz.

Originally Posted by yoav

A LOT.

So what your saying is the whole idea of religion is "I'm rich bitch!!"?

[Mattman]

You make some quite good points about the abuse of religion and negative impact of forced "belief". You also draw similarities between KATG and organised religions - this association due to the basic tribal instinct of humans rather than Keith being the new Messiah. Sports supporters enjoy the same feeling of belonging or following.

You will probably find that those who follow organised religions enjoy benefits not always obvious to outsiders, and no amount of mocking will take that away, as they come from the individual's internal value system. This is true whether the individual has thought and understood about their belief or not. I guess the same can be true of following a sports team or podcast.

I appreciate that you are debating this subject rather than blindly bashing.

[yoav]

Originally Posted by Mattman

You make some quite good points about the abuse of religion and negative impact of forced "belief". You also draw similarities between KATG and organised religions - this association due to the basic tribal instinct of humans rather than Keith being the new Messiah. Sports supporters enjoy the same feeling of belonging or following.

You will probably find that those who follow organised religions enjoy benefits not always obvious to outsiders, and no amount of mocking will take that away, as they come from the individual's internal value system. This is true whether the individual has thought and understood about their belief or not. I guess the same can be true of following a sports team or podcast.

I appreciate that you are debating this subject rather than blindly bashing.

religion has so many faces and interpretations, however i think a lot of people in 'free' societies stick with it for fear of not being able to replace it with something equally satisfying in terms of those instinctive social/psychological needs.

a very small margin of people i've spoken to about their religious practices or beliefs actually believe in what they do or have reasons for doing it, the majority don't really know why they do it. i can't imagine that on a core psychological level fulfilling those needs by participating in something you don't really believe in can be healthier, more satisfying, or more stable than fulfilling them by participating in something you do believe in.

for example, there's no empirical evidence that suggests their would be an afterlife, but there is plenty that shows everyone is made up of atoms and molecules and that when you die, and even while you're alive, those atoms and molecules are recycled into the earth and other organisms. i think those two concepts satisfy the same instinctive need, and that a significant amount of people are merely afraid to drop the one they were fed based on myth for the - in my opinion - more satisfying version based on fact. one that describes a self aware universe looking back at itself where we are all really one.

also the one based on fact has no room for manipulative tactics like "give yourself to jesus or you'll go to hell" or "kill people that disagree with you and you'll get 72 virgins", and is not really open to vast degrees of interpretation or disagreement. and where it is, everyone can agree that it is just interpretation - as apposed to religious myth which insists it's principles are divine and infallible.

so i don't believe religion is necessary, i do believe it negatively affects society. but religion is merely one set of exploitations of people that grow up learning not to think for themselves.

Originally Posted by JSZilla

So what your saying is the whole idea of religion is "I'm rich bitch!!"?

i'm saying that giving yourself to religion is to turn off your brain. and there are plenty of greedy people who are out for not just money, but power, and other - whether it's a political party, corporation, advertisement, etc. and it's really easy to take advantage of someone who's brain is turned off.

more frightening is once the majority of people turn their brain off and someone steps up to make them their flock, it doesn't matter if the minority speak out because the sheep will go to all extremes to defend what makes them feel safe. take clitoridectomy and genocide as common examples of those extremes.

when you give your life, will, and devotion to something that has dynamic interpretation, based on the whim of the interpreter, you're really giving someone else a blank check and blank mind to give you your next instructions. such behaviour should be abhorred by free thinking people as down the line(in 2010 we're already very far down that line) it directly affects everyone's safety and quality of life.

to summarize i think they should bring back Chappelle's Show. right now.

[nycguitarist]

I'm a pro guitarist just finished with a 8 month tour and new to NYC. I'm staying in Manhattan and want to meet some cool people to party with.

Hit me up KATG people

stevem14@mac.com

facebook.com/stevemathews

[Mattman]

At 9:30 I will be at mass with my family and 500 other Catholics in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam. We will have something outsiders do not understand.

Right or wrong. We will have it. No one can take that away. It is a real source of strength for me and my family.

You all may not understand, but that does not matter.

[yoav]

Originally Posted by Mattman

At 9:30 I will be at mass with my family and 500 other Catholics in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam. We will have something outsiders do not understand.

Right or wrong. We will have it. No one can take that away. It is a real source of strength for me and my family.

You all may not understand, but that does not matter.

if anything this thread illustrates that even atheists and agnostics can in fact relate to and understand what you have and get by going to mass and engaging in religion.

your complete lack of concern for whether your actions are right or wrong is worrying and selfish - regardless of whether they are in fact right or wrong.

your fictitious notion that someone is trying to "take that away" and your need to separate yourself from vietnamese people, to congregate specifically with a group of other people who share your belief that you're better than the local people is the root of slavery and oppression and hate and discrimination.

you are a very dangerous person. by promoting ignorance, segregation, and the belief that your beliefs are more correct than others based on nothing other than that very flimsy belief you are negatively impacting society.

your last post clearly shows how deluded you are and how you're subconsciously contriving anything you may have read in this thread, but mostly i'm sorry that you're unable to find strength in a healthy way.

maybe instead of giving your family a bullshit harmful prison of a crutch to depend on for the rest of their lives, teach them to draw inner strength.

[Junkenstein]

Maybe i'm missing something Yoav but this guy is a dangerous person because he's going to mass? Or because he (or she) said that whatever people say, he will have something that people cannot take away?

If your issue is with the latter statement, let me do a rephrasing:

"On the 15th of april, me and 500 other people will attend a KATG meeting. We will have something that outsiders dont understand. Right or wrong. We will have it. No one can take that away. It is a real source of strength for us"

What a nut, right? But believe me that sentence will go through the head of a lot of people here.

A lot of angry atheists that havent learned enough of the marvel that cold emotionless reason can give, act as their stance against religion is a battle postion and religious people are the enemy. Problem is, a guy who thinks that he will have a community feeling by going to church doesnt do any real harm.

Now if said guy said that he is going to attend a 500 people gathering of the church of the burning nigger, now that would be desputable. But still harmless, as long as it is a gathering (let them gather, who gives a shit)

But if said guy posted, i will meet with other people and we will bash the brains out of all non-believers, he would be dangerous. Hell he would be dangerous even if he was beating up non believers on his own. And he will be at least reprobable if he was pointing his finger and inuslting non believers.

But, see, my idea of atheism is believing in reason and logic and in the absence of absolute truths. So, taking away religion from the equation, you're the one that's attacking him because of his beliefs. You're pointing the finger and accusing. You're labeling him. You're segregatingn him.

You're the one whoi's acting dangerous. So be the atheist person and take the high road and answer like a true atheist:

"I'm going to a gathering of 500 people and we will blablabla"
"Whatever"

[BrianAlt]

What I don't get is, why did he need to post it at all? Who here is stopping him? Will some think he's crazy? Sure! Just as many, if not more, will think he's courageous.

Who really cares which he is. Good for him (or her) for doing what he (or she) wants.

[Junkenstein]

There was a religious discussion on and he did the very catholic trick of posting the "Say whatever, i will pray with my community and we will feel great. i dont care about y'all".

Most religious people do that but catholics love it. They get their self reassurance from the gathering/family/you dont get us/we feel sorry for you thing.

And if you watch the westboro church documentaries, their whole shtick is just an angrier version of that. "We're praying, we're a gathering, we have something that you dont understand". The feeling of being misunderstood is a great energy source for groups. Especially if some misguided people act like they're stupid or insane.

The true atheist reaction shouldnt be indignation, but a bemused indifference. To an atheist any form of religion has no more thretening power than a dog wearing a hat.