1129: Cerebral

[SanFranStagehand]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

The true atheist reaction shouldnt be indignation, but a bemused indifference. To an atheist any form of religion has no more thretening power than a dog wearing a hat.

Dogs wearing hats scare the shit out of me.

[Mattman]

Originally Posted by yoav

your complete lack of concern for whether your actions are right or wrong is worrying and selfish - regardless of whether they are in fact right or wrong.

your fictitious notion that someone is trying to "take that away" and your need to separate yourself from vietnamese people, to congregate specifically with a group of other people who share your belief that you're better than the local people is the root of slavery and oppression and hate and discrimination.

you are a very dangerous person. by promoting ignorance, segregation, and the belief that your beliefs are more correct than others based on nothing other than that very flimsy belief you are negatively impacting society.

your last post clearly shows how deluded you are and how you're subconsciously contriving anything you may have read in this thread, but mostly i'm sorry that you're unable to find strength in a healthy way.

maybe instead of giving your family a bullshit harmful prison of a crutch to depend on for the rest of their lives, teach them to draw inner strength.

In my previous posts I was giving you the benefit of doubt and trying to treat you with some form of respect for your point of view. I see now that I was wrong to do so.

Firstly I do not believe that I know everything about everything, which is why I said "right or wrong" about that part of my value system. Only an arrogant ignoramus would assume they were absolutely right about something that in essence has no proof. You are such an ignoramus.

Secondly, I was referring to YOU and your kind when I said people who would like to "take it away". You and your kind like to think that because you do not believe ... none of us can. The majority of people in the Cathedral in Vietnam are Vietnamese. D'uh! There are about 4 million-plus Catholics in Vietnam. The Church provides a lot of support to the poor Vietnamese communities, including schools and hospitals. I personally do a lot of community work in this field. Again, you don't know .. so maybe you should shut up.

I really don't understand your dangerous person statement, as it is YOU who seem to be the ignorant, hateful person who would look to eradicate religion
because you don't believe. I am promoting knowledge, as the first post that you decided to argue with was also doing. Knowledge, not belief - I have not tried to convert anyone here, I have simply stated how my religion fits into my life. Maybe some people would like to understand that point .. clearly you are not one of those people.

And your final statement just shows how worthless you are. You can keep your opinions of how I bring up my children to yourself. I personally chose to convert to Catholicism, and I was mature enough and knowledgeable enough to understand why I was doing it. I was also humble enough to find the right place for it in my life.

With the exception of your posts I don't even know you, but I would confidently say I am more of a complete person that you are .. "crutch" and all!

[yoav]

Originally Posted by Mattman

In my previous posts I was giving you the benefit of doubt and trying to treat you with some form of respect for your point of view. I see now that I was wrong to do so.

Firstly I do not believe that I know everything about everything, which is why I said "right or wrong" about that part of my value system. Only an arrogant ignoramus would assume they were absolutely right about something that in essence has no proof. You are such an ignoramus.

Secondly, I was referring to YOU and your kind when I said people who would like to "take it away". You and your kind like to think that because you do not believe ... none of us can. The majority of people in the Cathedral in Vietnam are Vietnamese. D'uh! There are about 4 million-plus Catholics in Vietnam. The Church provides a lot of support to the poor Vietnamese communities, including schools and hospitals. I personally do a lot of community work in this field. Again, you don't know .. so maybe you should shut up.

I really don't understand your dangerous person statement, as it is YOU who seem to be the ignorant, hateful person who would look to eradicate religion
because you don't believe. I am promoting knowledge, as the first post that you decided to argue with was also doing. Knowledge, not belief - I have not tried to convert anyone here, I have simply stated how my religion fits into my life. Maybe some people would like to understand that point .. clearly you are not one of those people.

And your final statement just shows how worthless you are. You can keep your opinions of how I bring up my children to yourself. I personally chose to convert to Catholicism, and I was mature enough and knowledgeable enough to understand why I was doing it. I was also humble enough to find the right place for it in my life.

With the exception of your posts I don't even know you, but I would confidently say I am more of a complete person that you are .. "crutch" and all!

how can you believe in the god described in your bible or the ceremonies carried out in "his" name, or any part of your religion if you don't believe the bible is the word of god? or god speaking through someone..

if you do believe the bible, then it says right in there that it's the word of god and infallible. if you believe the pope is infallible and the decision maker of what is moral and right or wrong, then you are a very dangerous person because your will is not your own. the pope could declare a fatwā tomorrow on orangoutangs , and the next day all the orangoutangs would be gone. exploded.

if you do not believe that the bible, pope, etc. are infallible and speak the word of god. then you still give them the same amount of support, and are perhaps not a willing soldier in a potential army, but still give your vote of support to that potential army. it's like a person thinking factory farms are awful but still eating mcdonalds every tuesday.

i believe very firmly in a person's right to believe whatever they want. i just wish you had the strength not to believe in fairy tails, despite the comfort you get from such fairy tails. the world really isn't terrifying without religion, you've just been taught to believe it is.

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

Maybe i'm missing something Yoav but this guy is a dangerous person because he's going to mass? Or because he (or she) said that whatever people say, he will have something that people cannot take away?

If your issue is with the latter statement, let me do a rephrasing:

"On the 15th of april, me and 500 other people will attend a KATG meeting. We will have something that outsiders dont understand. Right or wrong. We will have it. No one can take that away. It is a real source of strength for us"

What a nut, right? But believe me that sentence will go through the head of a lot of people here.

A lot of angry atheists that havent learned enough of the marvel that cold emotionless reason can give, act as their stance against religion is a battle postion and religious people are the enemy. Problem is, a guy who thinks that he will have a community feeling by going to church doesnt do any real harm.

Now if said guy said that he is going to attend a 500 people gathering of the church of the burning nigger, now that would be desputable. But still harmless, as long as it is a gathering (let them gather, who gives a shit)

But if said guy posted, i will meet with other people and we will bash the brains out of all non-believers, he would be dangerous. Hell he would be dangerous even if he was beating up non believers on his own. And he will be at least reprobable if he was pointing his finger and inuslting non believers.

But, see, my idea of atheism is believing in reason and logic and in the absence of absolute truths. So, taking away religion from the equation, you're the one that's attacking him because of his beliefs. You're pointing the finger and accusing. You're labeling him. You're segregatingn him.

You're the one whoi's acting dangerous. So be the atheist person and take the high road and answer like a true atheist:

"I'm going to a gathering of 500 people and we will blablabla"
"Whatever"

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

There was a religious discussion on and he did the very catholic trick of posting the "Say whatever, i will pray with my community and we will feel great. i dont care about y'all".

Most religious people do that but catholics love it. They get their self reassurance from the gathering/family/you dont get us/we feel sorry for you thing.

And if you watch the westboro church documentaries, their whole shtick is just an angrier version of that. "We're praying, we're a gathering, we have something that you dont understand". The feeling of being misunderstood is a great energy source for groups. Especially if some misguided people act like they're stupid or insane.

ah i see that now. wish you would have explained that before i posted cause i read his response as:

"i see how my practices of supporting christianity whether direct or indirect negatively affect society, and that despite building churches and schools here and there(which if i cared about i could easily donate to non-profits that do that) only for the purpose of spreading the word so that 50 years down the line vietnamese people will pray to the same god as me and donate to the same pope as me so he can buy an even bigger city and have an even bigger palace and golden throne to sit on.

i see that the abrahamic religions as a whole are designed to enslave the mind, oppress women, kill non believers, etc. and that the billionaire monarch who ultimately decides what his followers do and think - a concept so far from even what the bible claims jesus wanted, to be an obvious farce even to evangelicals. but i don't care if my actions or support go to something that is morally right or wrong, i don't care if that monarch instructs me to fullfil hate or protect child molesters or if that is morally right or wrong, i don't care if that monarch instructs me to hate gay people or remove their rights and treat them as sub citizens, or whether that is right or wrong, as long as i'm fulfilling my need to fit in and feel safe right and wrong doesn't matter.

furthermore, now that i've explained i have no moral compass, i'd also like to add that i will go to infinite lengths to defend my support of this monarchy especially against imaginary threats."

it's possible you meant "right or wrong" as correct or incorrect in the sense of whether or not the bible is the true word of god or not. and that you never went deep enough to even begin to consider the impact of your lifestyle beyond yourself, ie: whether the impacts direct or indirect are right or wrong.

regardless, the things you get from going to mass can be gotten from other sources and be equally fulfilling. and the negative impact of supporting catholicism(counts as one vote for every bad thing they do) far outweighs the pros. and that's just today, who knows what the pope will decree tomorrow that you will have to blindly follow for fear of losing what you depend on for security and comfort in this world. because of your devotion we're all at the mercy of a very old man who believes he can't be wrong.

[Junkenstein]

See, Yoav, i'm absolutely on your side when you say that religion is a dumb, outtadeted, hate monegring form of ritualistic cult that brings together retards who are afraid of reason and logic and find believeing in invisible people and silly afterlife theories more reassuring than scientifically proved facts. I also think that you're right when you mention that any form of relifgion gives money and power to manipulating hierarchs that pull on people's limited views of reality i order to get power.

But people, humans are a weak form of life that needs the iudea of a bigger design or a paternal entity in order to justify the world. They look at the beauty of the world and they need to build up a non-existing figure to justify it. They need made up rules, rituals and spells (or prayers) to feel less threatened. And they need to feel in the right.

As long as this stupid pastime keeps them occupied and focuses their natural instinct to kill each other in a way that we can set them apart and keep them closed in their churches while we develop serious stuff and progress, i'm ok with it.

Reason doesnt need them. We have survived and outdated them in the past and we will do it again. Let them worship their statues and feel superior. At least we have something to laugh at.

[Mattman]

This will be my last comment on the thread, because there is little point, it appears, in putting forward a normal person's point of view to an audience of bigots.

The vast majority of the world's population has a religious belief of some sort.

A tiny minority go out of their way to cause harm in the name of their own religion.

A far higher percentage of people are persecuted for their beliefs by people with contrary beliefs.

Junkenstein - I am not a retard, and your opening comments undermine your intellect. If you think you have the whole world figured out, good for you. Religions set out value systems, normally based on stories so they are easier to relate to. Some stories are based on historical truth and some are completely fictitious. Of course more educated people don't take it all literally. If you think that we do, you are a dumbass.

Yoav - you are clearly a moron. A fatwa on orangutan? That's your argument? You neither know what a fatwa is, how to spell orangutan, or how to make orangutan plural. Hint It's orangutan. You think you have catholicism all worked out and that all Catholics are to be pitied for not being able to face the world without believing in fairy tales. You don't know how stupid and immature that sounds. At least Junkenstein attempts to sound superior in some of his argument. You simply sound like a petulant schoolboy who once read a few pages of a theology book.

I remember how trendy it was to be cocksure, radical and extremist and how cool to evangelize atheism because it thumbs its nose at society. Then I grew up and I began to make choices based on my value preferences rather than simply trying to sound radical. Experience and making lifestyle choices doesn't stop me from being a KATG listener from Episode 5 ... so maybe you shouldn't make sweeping judgments about people simply based on their religion!

Thank you for the discussion.

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by Mattman

Junkenstein - I am not a retard, and your opening comments undermine your intellect. If you think you have the whole world figured out, good for you. Religions set out value systems, normally based on stories so they are easier to relate to. Some stories are based on historical truth and some are completely fictitious. Of course more educated people don't take it all literally. If you think that we do, you are a dumbass.

Never meant to call you a retard (i did, i know. but you happened to be in the way of one my reason vs everything tirdes. Sorry for that).

Religion supposedly sets out values systems in a simplified way for peoiple to understand them. But, in my opinion, that statement works only for the very earlyt version of religion. The values systems have beeen thoroughly corrupted by years of power abuse, and bad decisions. In the end, to make a clear cut example, the christian doctrine was based on being good to one another. From there has spawned catholicism, a religion that promotes guilt, hatred and visions of eternal punishment.

Of course not any catholic is aretard, as in not every atheist is a bigoted witch hunter. But the majority are. So, in my position of trying to base my beliefs on what seems more logical to me, i ended up being an atheist who doesnt support atheist movements.

I do slip into asshole-ish mean spiritedness sometimes, i'm sorry for that. That's, maybe, a consequence of being raised by two hardcore catholics who were two wrecked evil beings. But i am also a condescending prick.

[Mattman]

Apology accepted. (Damn I said the previous post would be my last). Agreed, catholic asshole parents bludgeoning their offspring with religion is not a good thing for the children or the religion. But it has made you strong and resolute in your own belief. And NO, I do not condone it, I try to explain what the moral of the story is to my kids ... when they are old enough, they are free to decide their beliefs ... like you have.

Really ... this is my last post on this topic.

[yoav]

Originally Posted by Mattman

This will be my last comment on the thread, because there is little point, it appears, in putting forward a normal person's point of view to an audience of bigots.

The vast majority of the world's population has a religious belief of some sort.

A tiny minority go out of their way to cause harm in the name of their own religion.

A far higher percentage of people are persecuted for their beliefs by people with contrary beliefs.

Junkenstein - I am not a retard, and your opening comments undermine your intellect. If you think you have the whole world figured out, good for you. Religions set out value systems, normally based on stories so they are easier to relate to. Some stories are based on historical truth and some are completely fictitious. Of course more educated people don't take it all literally. If you think that we do, you are a dumbass.

Yoav - you are clearly a moron. A fatwa on orangutan? That's your argument? You neither know what a fatwa is, how to spell orangutan, or how to make orangutan plural. Hint It's orangutan. You think you have catholicism all worked out and that all Catholics are to be pitied for not being able to face the world without believing in fairy tales. You don't know how stupid and immature that sounds. At least Junkenstein attempts to sound superior in some of his argument. You simply sound like a petulant schoolboy who once read a few pages of a theology book.

I remember how trendy it was to be cocksure, radical and extremist and how cool to evangelize atheism because it thumbs its nose at society. Then I grew up and I began to make choices based on my value preferences rather than simply trying to sound radical. Experience and making lifestyle choices doesn't stop me from being a KATG listener from Episode 5 ... so maybe you shouldn't make sweeping judgments about people simply based on their religion!

Thank you for the discussion.

you don't have to respond, but you made some mistakes

i won't list the massive impact religion has and has had on the world, but if it's a minority, how come you have so much pull in the us - never mind so many other countries, to treat gay people as subhuman? or take science out of schools and replace it with fairy tales as science? seems like you'd need a majority for that type of sociopolitical influence.

persecution, tell me about it... both my grandparents' entire families - on my dad's side, were brutally murdered by people who turned their brains off just like you. but so were a lot of catholics so i guess junk is right, people that turn their brains off will just go around killing each other and everybody else for no reason.

"a far higher percentage of people are persecuted for their beliefs by people with contrary beliefs".. when the persecuting side's beliefs are fabricated fairy tales. like religion.

a fatwā is a way by which islamic leaders define enemies of the state. this wasn't always true, but today it is. the parallel to your religion is the pope deciding whether or not homosexuals are people.

i had no idea everything i wrote at 6am on an internet forum was being scrutinized for spelling errors but you should look up the english spelling of the word orangoutang instead of insisting your americanized bastardization of the language is the one true correct spelling. that's some of your religious temperament spilling over into language acceptance, and further illustrates the points i've made in this thread. turn your brain on.. for 5 mins. you won't want to go back to the darkness.

last correction...
i should make sweeping judgements about religion. if you're at all a representative of a barely religious person who became religious by choice, it only get's worse right? and you already seem pretty malleable and brain dead. if only i knew the code to input instructions i could help you.

[yoav]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

See, Yoav, i'm absolutely on your side when you say that religion is a dumb, outtadeted, hate monegring form of ritualistic cult that brings together retards who are afraid of reason and logic and find believeing in invisible people and silly afterlife theories more reassuring than scientifically proved facts. I also think that you're right when you mention that any form of relifgion gives money and power to manipulating hierarchs that pull on people's limited views of reality i order to get power.

But people, humans are a weak form of life that needs the iudea of a bigger design or a paternal entity in order to justify the world. They look at the beauty of the world and they need to build up a non-existing figure to justify it. They need made up rules, rituals and spells (or prayers) to feel less threatened. And they need to feel in the right.

As long as this stupid pastime keeps them occupied and focuses their natural instinct to kill each other in a way that we can set them apart and keep them closed in their churches while we develop serious stuff and progress, i'm ok with it.

Reason doesnt need them. We have survived and outdated them in the past and we will do it again. Let them worship their statues and feel superior. At least we have something to laugh at.

if nobody says anything they'll ban the internet cause there's porn on it. PORN junk... PORN!!!.. i don't find anything funny about that.

do we really want another "dark age" or stem cell ban? i have a family member with parkinson's, if it wasn't for religion he'd be a lot better off by now.

what if instead of laughing at these people, rational people reached out to them - like their pastors claim to be doing, and open their minds a bit. stable rational people could be helping these deluded frightened meek people and empowering them to take responsibility for their own lives.

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by yoav

do we really want another "dark age" or stem cell ban? i have a family member with parkinson's, if it wasn't for religion he'd be a lot better off by now.

what if instead of laughing at these people, rational people reached out to them - like their pastors claim to be doing, and open their minds a bit. stable rational people could be helping these deluded frightened meek people and empowering them to take responsibility for their own lives.

I think that a Dark Age eventually will come, sooner or later.

I am a strong believer of the theory that mankind will end by slow regression and decay and that we will end up like feral creatures that each other until one different species will take our place. But i doubt that religion will be the direct cause of it.

Humans have the tendency to self annihilate, kill each other and act aganst their own development, so if we took religion away, they would just find a different cult to justify their lack of direction, fear of the unknown and need to segregate.

I think that trying to help people evolve is an idealistic exercise in futility. People have evolved enough already.