1240: God & Guns

[Medium Brumski]

I don't own a gun, but I grew up with plenty of them and my folks still have several. My oldest brother and I have both, on a few seperate occasions, brought college friends who grew up in a city to our parents farm for a rural experience, one thing we always do is shoot some guns, always a fun thing to do, blow apart some cans and bottles and apples, if you haven't done this before in your life, you should try it.

I never really understood why people would, seemingly inherently, dislike or hate guns. Are there any guys out there that really don't like guns, because it seems to be a more typical female response. Makes me think of what Keith has said before, that most guys will think that a sword is cool, maybe it's something along those lines.

[hayroob]

I guess I'll toss my hat in the ring on this:

Saying they shouldn't build it because it will offend people is stupid. They are trying to practice their religion in a country where xenophobia towards muslims is acceptable and no matter what they do people will be offended as long as they continue to hold their beliefs. (This is where Keith demeans an entire people by talking about how Islam is practiced in other countries and how we should judge all Muslims based on this.)

As for their funding sources, they owe no public disclosure of their funding except to the IRS. Some time around tax season of next year, we'll get to see a redacted version of their filings the same as we would for any other church.

Being polite and trying not to hurt feelings is something you should aspire to, but not something that can or should dictate your behavior in the face of fear mongering and these banshee screams of fear towards the nebulous other.

And to speak to practicality:
If you really don't think that the Cordoba House should be built then doing things like voting with your dollar and boycotting the construction companies is way more sensible than attacking politicians and demanding legal action. (I am aware that most if not all of you here are not advocating for legal action, but many in the general public and in the media are.)

Also if the problem you have with Islam is the oppressive attitudes that many prominent figures in the religion hold toward women, then engage them on that level. Let them build a prayer center, then go there and talk to them. Telling them they aren't welcome doesn't fix things, telling them they are welcome but talking to them about issues like women's right give you an opportunity to actually make a difference, even if just at a local level.

[Blitzgal]

Is Murfreesboro, TN too close to ground zero? What about Sheboygan, WI? Or Temecula, CA? In CA the protest signs read "Mosques are Monuments to Terrorism." Point is, it doesn't matter where they're being built, because this is all political fear mongering due to the upcoming election.

And in continuation of the incidents in NY, last night some dude walked into a mosque and pissed on their prayer rugs. I guess it's better than stabbing a South Asian cab driver in the neck while screaming, "Assalamu Alaikum, consider this a checkpoint!"

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by Blitzgal

Is Murfreesboro, TN too close to ground zero? What about Sheboygan, WI? Or Temecula, CA? In CA the protest signs read "Mosques are Monuments to Terrorism." Point is, it doesn't matter where they're being built, because this is all political fear mongering due to the upcoming election.

The fact that Mosques are for a large part actual recruitment centers fpor terrorists might help too.

[hayroob]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

But also, people will hate them and be xenophobic even if the mosque gets built. Actually the anger towards the will be even greater. The gesture is SUPPOSED to be a synbol of communion and tolerance, all it is is a gesture of compromise towards thge obnoxious demands of Islamic whining groups and idiotic liberals who think that the world should fit their image where everyone hugs each other, uncaring of how some would feel.

If the Islamic group decided to say "we understand the issue, we will make the first step" instead of pushing for a coexistence that will always be false, forced and hypocritical, they would have gained more respect and points in dignity and diplomacy.

Or we could recognize that they have every right to build and do business there, and act like the adults that, in theory, are and leave them be. Coexistence and tolerance isn't endorsement, it's just not interfering.

And if you insist on interfering at least be honest about it. I think that if you are a christian and don't want them to build a muslim center because it offends you religiously then at least you have a position. Same if you are an atheist and simply don't like any religion building a prayer center.

You have a right to not like it, but that doesn't supersede their right to build it.

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

The real ignorant xenophobe are probably happy right now, since this building is just a reason to show how "islam wont back down even in front of open wounds".

Heaven forbid someone who hates a people out of ignorance continue to hate a people out of ignorance.

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

Actually it wouldnt be surprised if the whole thing was about funding. Probably the funders of the mosque are the same guys that fund some of the groups behind the govwernment, so horray tolerance. Oh right this is conspiracy thepry so obviously it's bullshit, even if it's true. Just because the puppet's black he doesnt cease to be a puppet.

?

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

So in simple words, one should forget the feelings of people who had numbers of victims killed in an attack conducted by two fundamentalist islam believers, and let a symbol of that religion built near (how near is unimportant) the area because of those nice words you put together? Ok, then, let's take down the monuments to soldiers who died in iraq because they killed some of their people and that hurts the funders' sensibility (since we're already setting a precedent). We must not listen to the banshee screaming.

This is turned inside out. Saying we shouldn't build the Cordoba House because it is too close to Ground Zero, because it is associated with Islam, and because 9-11 was perpetrated by Muslims would lead you to say, if you followed the same rules, that they shouldn't build monuments to soldiers in Iraq.

I think they should be allowed to build the Cordoba House and I think they should be able to build monuments to soldiers. Hope we're on the same page now.

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

The representative of liberal islam are getting killed daily for attempting dialogue with the non-liberal islam. So there's no possibility to make a difference, unless we want to live in la-la-land.

Be objective and realistic.

Objective and realistic is where I live. Actually where I live is Detroit, about 15 minutes from Dearborn, MI, one of the largest Arabic and Muslim populations in North America. I interact daily with people of Arabic descent and who follow Islam. The battleground for making progressive stances in hardline religions is right here in the US where you aren't allowed to kill someone for suggesting that maybe your stance on something should move a little. If you actually care to effect change this is where it's going to happen.

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

The fact that Mosques are for a large part actual recruitment centers for terrorists might help too.

You're just being a jerk now.

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by hayroob

Or we could recognize that they have every right to build and do business there, and act like the adults that, in theory, are and leave them be. Coexistence and tolerance isn't endorsement, it's just not interfering..

Ok. But since they acted in a hostile manner and coinue to do so, why cant they atone for their mistakes and find a different place to conduct their business, instead of one so close to a sensitive point? Why push it?

Originally Posted by hayroob

And if you insist on interfering at least be honest about it. I think that if you are a christian and don't want them to build a muslim center because it offends you religiously then at least you have a position. Same if you are an atheist and simply don't like any religion building a prayer center.

I am not putting this in religious terms, since it isnt about this. It's a bout an equality of respect that is being stomped over in the name of a one-sided correctness.

There will never be coexistence, peace or good relationships with islam and the rest of non-islamic countries. It cant exist. They can live in non-islamic countries , even build their praying centers in them, but they have to handle the fact that they're going to unnerve people with their presence and deal with it. They are a hostile religion for the most part and that's the result.

Also, i dont seem to recall much tolerance from their part when it comes to acceptin non-religious insitutions on their grounds.

And trying to be "superior" and "take the higher road" will just be forcing a coexistence that will never ever ever work.

Originally Posted by hayroob

You have a right to not like it, but that doesn't supersede their right to build it..

Sure, but if we're discussing opinions, my opinion is that it shouldnt be built. And approving the building is disrespectful and forceful.

Originally Posted by hayroob

Heaven forbid someone who hates a people out of ignorance continue to hate a people out of ignorance...

Well in this case hostility is justified. You cannot always use the ignorance card. They hate you, but when you react to that hatred, then you're ignorant. Not fair.

Originally Posted by hayroob

?...

Simply put, if the president and the people are backed up by funds that come from groups that support the mosques, their decision will favour those groups and not the population. That's because the presiudent is in 90% of the cases a puppet, no matter which race or credo he has. In this case he is a smooth talking, fakely liberal, afriocan american puppet. One for the new century, i'd say.

Originally Posted by hayroob

I think they should be allowed to build the Cordoba House and I think they should be able to build monuments to soldiers. Hope we're on the same page now.

No. A monument to soldiers is usually built close to their home, so the family can see it and remember them and their actions. A mosque built there would only be there to satisfy the will of some focus interest group or some group of people who cannot see why the symbol of what's behind thousands of death could hurt the locals.

Originally Posted by hayroob

Objective and realistic is where I live. Actually where I live is Detroit, about 15 minutes from Dearborn, MI, one of the largest Arabic and Muslim populations in North America. I interact daily with people of Arabic descent and who follow Islam. The battleground for making progressive stances in hardline religions is right here in the US where you aren't allowed to kill someone for suggesting that maybe your stance on something should move a little. If you actually care to effect change this is where it's going to happen.
.

There will always be a fight for progressive stances and it wont get anyone nowhere since their hatred towards western civilization and amny political reason behind it are so rooted that they cannot be undone.

Originally Posted by hayroob

You're just being a jerk now.

Oh please. Jerky digs are part of any passionate arguing. Dont be a sensitive pussy now, big boy.

[DWarrior]

jfc, they're not the same they.


I also hope you decide to build a mosque someday, so I can oppose it on shaky self-centered moral grounds.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Blitzgal

Is Murfreesboro, TN too close to ground zero? What about Sheboygan, WI? Or Temecula, CA? In CA the protest signs read "Mosques are Monuments to Terrorism." Point is, it doesn't matter where they're being built, because this is all political fear mongering due to the upcoming election.

And in continuation of the incidents in NY, last night some dude walked into a mosque and pissed on their prayer rugs. I guess it's better than stabbing a South Asian cab driver in the neck while screaming, "Assalamu Alaikum, consider this a checkpoint!"

For most folks the issue isn't mosques in general, but this mosque in particular, and its effects on a particular segment of the US population.

The fact that most have not heard of the Murfreesboro mosque issue, or the Sheboygan one, actually proves that it DOES matter where they're being built, as those never turned into national issues.

Plenty of people opposing the construction of this mosque are xenophobes. That's true. However, there are real issues at play here besides simple Islamophobia. That people oppose the construction of the mosque for bad reasons does not mean that others do not have real issues with the project.

It is insensitive to some of those affected by the attacks. Insensitivity is not a crime, that much is true, but we can hold people responsible for their conduct and sensitivity, so long as we're consistent.

Drawing Muhammad is not illegal, but it is insensitive, and ought be avoided not because one doesn't have the right to do it, but because being nice and engendering good will with others is a worthwhile pursuit. Those who oppose mosque construction anywhere in the US are dead wrong, but one also must recognize that the Cordoba House is a particular case that can and does affect people already significantly influenced by a recent tragedy.

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by hayroob

I guess I'll toss my hat in the ring on this:

Saying they shouldn't build it because it will offend people is stupid. They are trying to practice their religion in a country where xenophobia towards muslims is acceptable and no matter what they do people will be offended as long as they continue to hold their beliefs. (This is where Keith demeans an entire people by talking about how Islam is practiced in other countries and how we should judge all Muslims based on this.).

But also, people will hate them and be xenophobic even if the mosque gets built. Actually the anger towards the will be even greater. The gesture is SUPPOSED to be a synbol of communion and tolerance, all it is is a gesture of compromise towards thge obnoxious demands of Islamic whining groups and idiotic liberals who think that the world should fit their image where everyone hugs each other, uncaring of how some would feel.

If the Islamic group decided to say "we understand the issue, we will make the first step" instead of pushing for a coexistence that will always be false, forced and hypocritical, they would have gained more respect and points in dignity and diplomacy.

The real ignorant xenophobe are probably happy right now, since this building is just a reason to show how "islam wont back down even in front of open wounds".

Originally Posted by hayroob

As for their funding sources, they owe no public disclosure of their funding except to the IRS. Some time around tax season of next year, we'll get to see a redacted version of their filings the same as we would for any other church.

Actually it wouldnt be surprised if the whole thing was about funding. Probably the funders of the mosque are the same guys that fund some of the groups behind the govwernment, so horray tolerance. Oh right this is conspiracy thepry so obviously it's bullshit, even if it's true. Just because the puppet's black he doesnt cease to be a puppet.

Originally Posted by hayroob

Being polite and trying not to hurt feelings is something you should aspire to, but not something that can or should dictate your behavior in the face of fear mongering and these banshee screams of fear towards the nebulous other..

So in simple words, one should forget the feelings of people who had numbers of victims killed in an attack conducted by two fundamentalist islam believers, and let a symbol of that religion built near (how near is unimportant) the area because of those nice words you put together? Ok, then, let's take down the monuments to soldiers who died in iraq because they killed some of their people and that hurts the funders' sensibility (since we're already setting a precedent). We must not listen to the banshee screaming.

Originally Posted by hayroob

Also if the problem you have with Islam is the oppressive attitudes that many prominent figures in the religion hold toward women, then engage them on that level. Let them build a prayer center, then go there and talk to them. Telling them they aren't welcome doesn't fix things, telling them they are welcome but talking to them about issues like women's right give you an opportunity to actually make a difference, even if just at a local level.

The representative of liberal islam are getting killed daily for attempting dialogue with the non-liberal islam. So there's no possibility to make a difference, unless we want to live in la-la-land.

Be objective and realistic.