1372: On the Mark

[Blitzgal]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

I don't think we find differences in each other because we innately try to; people are naturally different. Religion and culture are not superficial differences.

Not superficial, but arbitrary. What we choose to focus on as an insurmountable difference that makes us a team and anyone else "Other" is completely arbitrary. It gets to the ridiculous point where different kinds of Christians hate each other. If there were no racial differences or religious differences, we'd focus on something else. Ear shape. Hair color. Height. And it is definitely an instinctive survival mechanism that goes back to early man, when not recognizing an outsider on sight could mean death. Tribalism is what the phenomenon is called:

Tribalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, humans can and do strive to surpass some of our more stupid animal qualities. Don't take this to mean that I'm justifying racism or religious persecution, because I'm definitely not.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Tribalism is the identification and labeling of a phenomenon of human behavior, and is not itself an explanation of why that human behavior occurs. You did nothing more than put a name to what we are discussing. You have posited that it is itself a primal, instinctual drive, but that's not said on that page. The closest is: "People have postulated that the human brain is hard-wired towards tribalism due to its evolutionary advantages." I'm not saying it isn't. Saying that the brain is naturally inclined to a behavior is not the same as saying the behavior itself is instinctual drive.

Spotting differences isn't arbitrary; we do it constantly. We couldn't operate without it. It's an essential part of life. It is natural that we apply it to each other. What causes things like tribalism is we are inclined to like people who are similar to ourselves. The more someone reflects ourselves back to us, the more we like them. We like people who think what we do because we like what we think; we wouldn't think it if we didn't.

Difference is a fact, a reality. If someone couldn't identify differences, they lack awareness and are cognitively inferior to someone that can. The issue is why people are motivated to make such a big deal about differences between each other.

Let me quote a piece of that Wiki article to illustrate what I'm saying:

According to a study by Robin Dunbar at the University of Liverpool, primate brain size is determined by social group size. Dunbar's conclusion was that the human brain can only really understand a maximum of 150 individuals as fully developed, complex people (see Dunbar's number). Malcolm Gladwell expanded on this conclusion sociologically in his book, The Tipping Point. According to these studies, then, "tribalism" is in some sense an inescapable fact of human neurology, simply because the human brain is not adapted to working with large populations. Beyond 150, the human brain must resort to some combination of hierarchical schemes, stereotypes, and other simplified models in order to understand so many people.

According to that paragraph, tribalism is the result of insufficient ability to recognize combinations of variations. While that discards the notion that identification of difference in itself is not the problem, it still has nothing to with providing the real answer for why ethnocentrism is so prevalent. I have provided a substantive reason.

I don't know why the distinction I'm making here is hard to grasp.

[DWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

I don't know why the distinction I'm making here is hard to grasp.

I'm guessing it's because most of us Victor Varnado the forums (using that as a verb).

[Blitzgal]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

I don't know why the distinction I'm making here is hard to grasp.

There is a difference between not agreeing with a point and not understanding it. And the bottom quote from you is essentially what I've been saying. It's innate and ingrained, and related to evolutionary survival. You've now reversed yourself when you earlier claimed that it is not innate. You don't think the actual qualities that we end up focusing on are arbitrary, and I do. For instance, skin color seems to be an obvious choice, but when you consider that even with different skin colors we are still far more alike than we are different, the choice to focus on skin color appears arbitrary. And cultural differences evolve over time as we hold ourselves separate from other groups and those groups go in different directions than we do. It's a give and take.

But, that's a difference of opinion that really isn't going to get resolved.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

I don't think we find differences in each other because we innately try to; people are naturally different.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Spotting differences isn't arbitrary; we do it constantly. We couldn't operate without it. It's an essential part of life. It is natural that we apply it to each other.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by Blitzgal

There is a difference between not agreeing with a point and not understanding it. And the bottom quote from you is essentially what I've been saying. It's innate and ingrained, and related to evolutionary survival. You've now reversed yourself when you earlier claimed that it is not innate.

You're messing with the context. You were saying that it is done in particular in regards to other people to a degree that something is conjured from nothing (uses of the word "arbitrary" corroborate that that was your meaning, and it is that I disagreed with). It's quite clear from my post that I think differences are found not because we are desperate to find them but because they are quite easily found.

I never said the behavior isn't something people do naturally; they do, because it is done, and has always been done.

Originally Posted by Blitzgal

You don't think the actual qualities that we end up focusing on are arbitrary, and I do. For instance, skin color seems to be an obvious choice, but when you consider that even with different skin colors we are still far more alike than we are different, the choice to focus on skin color appears arbitrary. And cultural differences evolve over time as we hold ourselves separate from other groups and those groups go in different directions than we do. It's a give and take.

But, that's a difference of opinion that really isn't going to get resolved.

Well yes, it's quite easy to get along if you just say anything anyone can care about is arbitrary. Is coalescing into different groups based on political opinions arbitrary? Religion and culture are, so that seems like equally arbitrary. I have a hard time seeing what exactly there is to agree about once you discount any possible foundation of personal perspective.

People see and experience the world differently and do not want the same things from it. Explain to me how me and someone who has completely opposite religious, political, and cultural views are more similar than not. Should I be holding hands with a Westboro Baptist Church nutter and singing "kumbaya" because we possess similar biological structures and functions?

[hellbent]

whats the name of that messed up gambling game they mentioned in this episode? the one where your bet doubles and shit?

[Mike (Not Really)]

Did anyone else have to pause the episode when hearing that Jesse told Pat that his favorite jokes Pat performed were the ones Pat didn't write? Hardest I've laughed in a long time.

[DWarrior]

Originally Posted by hellbent

whats the name of that messed up gambling game they mentioned in this episode? the one where your bet doubles and shit?

Some variation of "Progressive (Keno, Roulette, etc)"

"Super Keno/Progressive Keno" scam in Dominican Republic casinos - Sports Handicapping Forum