1410: No Dancing

[bofadeeznizzles]

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

Additionally, I'm not sure you're right about transexuals. There are post op people that regret their decision. Others that never regret it. How do you explain that? You can never be 100% sure. You can THINK you know and you can turn out to be right. But if you are 100% sure, you're only trying to convince yourself.

This is an interesting point that I feel is being overlooked. Say you were a woman but felt like a man. Then you got a sex change, now have a penis and regret it. Were you not really a woman that felt like a man before?

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

you can feel however you want but you also said "lauren, you dont know if you feel like a man" which is silly.

She stated how she felt like that since the day she was born, how she always thought she was a "boy without a penis", how even after she was sent to "corrective therapy" she still felt that inside she was a man....

I don't think it's right to trivialize his statement like that. I think Brian is saying that Lauren doesn't have a valid reference for claiming to be a man on the inside. If he's not, then I'm hypothesizing it. I think that argument has merit. You used the same argument by saying that...

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

all i'm saying is that you cannot understand how it feels to be a transgender unless you're one

I don't think it can be one way without being the other.

Originally Posted by Hennessy

If you woke up with tits and no dick tomorrow, believe me, Brian, you WOULD know what it feels to feel like a man and not be one. How easy it is for you to stand there and say you don't feel like a man or a woman. You must feel more like one than the other if you had to clarify that you don't feel like a man but you don't feel like a woman "At All!"

You're right that he would know, but that's because he would have had the reference of being a man already. However, you do bring up a valid point that just as Brian says you don't know what it feels like to be a man per se, he doesn't actually know what it feels like to not be a woman. Maybe being a woman feels pretty damned close to what Brian feels like right now. I find myself agreeing with Brian's thought that we all just feel like ourselves. Moreover, I think a lot of what we define as being a woman or a man lies exclusively in brain and body chemistry, hormonal balances, etc... But that is pure speculation.

I'm also confused because i don't understand how valid a child's opinion on being a boy without a penis is. A child has almost no understanding of the difference between boys and girls other than some vague penis and vagina nonsense and whatever their parents teach them about playing with "appropriate" toys and whatnot.

I guess I would really like to know what "man" or "woman" qualities transgendered people feel they have or lack. Or is it solely the body parts? This is such a tough issue because the parts of the puzzle are always moving. How do we define gender in a culture whose gender roles are rapidly being redefined? How do we define it on a global scale where many definitions don't match?

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

Dude, cant you just say you posted something silly? its not like saying its your opinion makes it less silly.

everyone post silliness sometimes. we know you aint a silly man, but that post sounded very silly.

I didn't think it was silly.



I want to say that I find this discussion fascinating and I applaud Lauren wholeheartedly for her bravery in a candid discussion. And also her willingness to engage on the forums as well. So thank you for sharing yourself with us.

I also want to say that I find the issue rather confusing as well. Well, on one hand I find it kind of cut and dry. But on the other hand, I find it confusing as all fuck. I hope this conversation continues. I know it's helping myself and others think outside their own box (pardon the pun).

On a side note, I will refer to someone with ovaries and whatnot as a "she" and someone with all the dude parts as "he" until I get to know them personally. No stranger has the right to demand that I stare at their cock and call them "she." However, if you respect that person I'd imagine you would show them deference. That said, I feel like we don't need to say "Lauren says she feels like a boy, so she must actually feel like a boy and that's that." However, I do think we should say "Lauren says she feels like a boy" and then give that all the respect and credit she has earned. And I'd say that's a damned bit more credit and respect than a stranger.

I apologize for the lengthy post.

[Hennessy]

Wow, amazing points and questions!! Thank you! I'll TRY and elaborate/clarify. Im sure there are other transgendered men who have been living with this and learning about it longer who could more eloquently answer them but you got me now. So here goes...

Originally Posted by bofadeeznizzles

This is an interesting point that I feel is being overlooked. Say you were a woman but felt like a man. Then you got a sex change, now have a penis and regret it. Were you not really a woman that felt like a man before?

This has happened before. I saw a documentary once where someone had a sex change then wasn't happy and changed back. This is completely different from my experience. This person whether female or male had other issues they failed to recognize. They were trying to get away from themselves in a way, something we can not do. I believe that SOME people do "become gay" for unhealthy reasons such as not trusting a certain sex because of childhood trauma. I also think that people do things to themselves because they are not secure with themselves.

Let me also take this opportunity to point out that not all transgendered people are unhappy with their given bodies and plumbing. I was in a group of 'booby-born' men recently. Some had gotten breast surgery. Some "bottom" and some both. Some none at all. Some of these individuals identified as gay, some straight. One guy went on about how he loved his pussy and wouldn't trade it for anything! I wish I felt more this way. I'm working toward it.

The main problem here is that we are taught as 'boys' or 'girls' to fit a certain body. I was born as a boy but not in what most would call a boys body. I feel as though I was born wrong. And it's wrong probably because I was taught that people like me should have penises. And I don't fit in with other guys. I'll never be completely seen or taken seriously as one amongst my male peers.

Originally Posted by bofadeeznizzles

...You're right that he would know, but that's because he would have had the reference of being a man already.

Oh I have a feeling he would still know even if he didn't have that reference. What about people that are born with both genitalia that grow to learn and ultimately discover the gender they are? Do they get a free pass to do this just because they happen to have both? What if they chose wrong??? They don't.
There is something inside of us that knows. We don't need people to tell us such or treat us like such to know within ourselves what gender we are. People born with clef pallets get reconstruction surgery. Because it doesn't match who they are inside. People change their outside to match their inside all the time. Tatoos, hair, they lose weight, they wear something to express their insides. This is just an extreme example because its my actual whole body. This is more than just a feeling. This is a deep embedded certainty. Just as you, reader, feel certain of your core being.

Originally Posted by bofadeeznizzles

I'm also confused because i don't understand how valid a child's opinion on being a boy without a penis is.

Don't underestimate children. They are much more capable and intuitive than that. I had the simple knowledge that boys had penises. So of course, I thought mine would grow in! Obviously! Well it never did. Now I'm not a child anymore. I still feel the same way. I guess this isn't valid enough?

Originally Posted by bofadeeznizzles

I guess I would really like to know what "man" or "woman" qualities transgendered people feel they have or lack. Or is it solely the body parts?

No. It isn't solely body parts. That's one of my big things but it changes from person to person. It's being treated with the same respect and recognition as our gendered brethren. It's being able to be seen and accepted without having to defend or explain our existence. It's feeling as normal as a person can feel, loving who we want the way we want. Its a shame but believe it or not, it's easier to go through life being seen and recognized and accepted as who you are. My body doesn't show who I am. This affects my life more than you could possibly imagine. And it's tough.

Originally Posted by bofadeeznizzles

This is such a tough issue because the parts of the puzzle are always moving. How do we define gender in a culture whose gender roles are rapidly being redefined? How do we define it on a global scale where many definitions don't match?

Exactly. This is the issue. Why do we have to define it at all? Why aren't we allowed to to define ourselves as adults? Why do we have to let others define and judge who we are in order for it to be palpable and okay?

Originally Posted by bofadeeznizzles

I want to say that I find this discussion fascinating and I applaud Lauren wholeheartedly for her bravery in a candid discussion. And also her willingness to engage on the forums as well. So thank you for sharing yourself with us.

Thank you all for continuing this discussion. This is such an important issue to talk about. Millions of men and women are living with the same situation I am and I love that it's being put out there and talked about.

I know I answered many of these with questions but I hope it just puts your questions in my experiences and helps you better understand. This is still a conundrum to me. I don't fully understand why I am the way I am. Maybe Huggie really is a genius and I'm just crazy. I'm still finding my own language about it. And I welcome any other questions if you want my opinions.

[jacey.ATX]

Excellent post, Lauren. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

Xxoo
Jacey

[Ansur]

Originally Posted by The Girl

To add to Lauren's post: Brian, I feel more "masculine" than other women. I'm more aggressive, outspoken and other such things we normally equate with male traits (whether that's right or wrong to equate as such).
BUT if I woke up with a penis I would cry... like a lot.

I think choke-slamming people is a male trait.

[Snarky]

FTW

[Medium Brumski]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

ok its debateable, everything is debeateable, but when it comes to the barebone issues, especially when it comes to sexual identity, rights and all, the two main blocks are homsexuality as a choice vs homosexuality as an aspect youre born with and cannot be modified.

taking it as a behavioural aspect is one of the arguments of homophobis (not saying youre a homophobe but thats how it is), and one of the arguments behind the re-orientation clinics

and when it comes to being transgender, i wouldnt even discuss it the same way as homosexuality. its something youre born with, not hereditary, maybe, but defnitely not something you "learn" or "choose"

You do realize I'm presenting your own argument, don't you? I'm just following the rabbit hole instead of stopping at "you're born a certain way." If you're undeniably born a certain way, then yes, that would be due to your genes, it simply has to be, what else could it be? If so, how do you explain identical twins where only one is gay, and isn't there a statistic that shows the more older siblings you have, the liklihood of a child being gay goes up?

I didn't think you were calling me a homophobe, it would be silly if you were cause I was stating both sides of a possible debate, I didn't make any claim one way or the other about my personal feelings. If you want to know, personally I couldn't care less about the "cause" of people not fitting nicely into the gender polarity, whether it's nature, nurture, societal pressures, a choice or G-d just being an asshole. I hope most people can find happiness and fulfillment with their lives, however they can, as long as I have chicks to bang and awesome KATG shows to listen to, I'll be set.

[Junkenstein]

i follow that was the issue, but i cant find an alternative to using the genteic term without falling into the behaviour route.

Its more of "since i am completely opposed to the idea of being a learned or acuqired aspect, i suppose its a trait like being light skinned or dark"

[Cretaceous Bob]

That's genetics. Gay advocates should stay the fuck away from genetics arguments, because it will never hold up.

There are plenty of things that feel innate to our being that aren't genetic, but are somewhat alterable. I figure sexuality is one of those.

[Junkenstein]

what do you mean when you say "somewhat alterable"?

[Cretaceous Bob]

In my opinion, it's evident that people's sexuality can be affected by things like trauma and society, mostly in formative years.

In addition, I think sexuality changes subtlety throughout life.

The only immutable thing in us is what is genetic. Everything else is, at some point, malleable. You can't beat the black out of a child, but you can probably beat some weird, fucked up shit into his head, and consequently his sexuality.