1471: Ted's American Dream?

[DJ Trashy]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

I don't understand your point, DJ. Unemployment is high, so the millions of jobs these corporations fill are nullified. Is that what you're saying?

No. I'm saying that giving the wealthy and/or corporations a tax break has not prevented them from laying people off at record levels.

[FletchLives]

Originally Posted by DJ Trashy

No. I'm saying that giving the wealthy and/or corporations a tax break has not prevented them from laying people off at record levels.

Right. They completely mis-managed their money. They bought jets and Carribean islands and 15 houses and $10000 bottles of champagne. So would we have been better off without them and without the millions of jobs they supported, whether they still exist or not? What about the billions of dollars they throw into the economy, would we be better if that money had never been spent? I'm not saying these are good people who care about their country. I am saying they will never cease exist, because they fuel our entire economic system. I hate our econimic system, it's the most vile, corrupted thing on earth. But I believe that no one, including the highest powers of our government or corporations, has the power to change that.

[Dean from Australia]

Unless you guys have some kind of revolution, Libyan styled.

[FletchLives]

Some people are saying that these "Occupy" protests are the minute beginnings of a mass revolution like we've seen in North Africa and the middle east lately. I stopped by Occupy Dallas on Saturday. It seems to be going pretty well, except that their main theme is "Well, we're still figuring out what we want, but we aren't leaving til we get it!"
I assume there are probably over 900 cities having these protests now.

[stulagu]

Originally Posted by Dean from Australia

Unless you guys have some kind of revolution, Libyan styled.

And then we'd see true economic collapse with no one able to get any sort of loans we wouldn't have a real estate market, no car market, and employers would have to hold onto their cash and stockpile instead of borrowing to pay their payroll. Can you imagine the amount of jobs lost then? We'd be begging the big corporations to hire us back.

Even with the horrible amount of corporate greed, at least we aren't in a feudal system where we starve all winter and our maidens are raped on their wedding night. Things could be worse, people. (sorry, just watched Braveheart)

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

Ok. How about those people, who hire millions globally?

So, no response? It's been a few days.

And corporations hire millions of people. That's true. However, this is not an all-or-nothing scenario. We can agree that corporations have specific advantages in certain types of job and wealth creation while still positing that society could do a better job of regulating them and taxing them.

As far as changing that, societies have routinely overpowered certain corporations, albeit usually with the threat of violence.

[Blitzgal]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

However, this is not an all-or-nothing scenario. We can agree that corporations have specific advantages in certain types of job and wealth creation while still positing that society could do a better job of regulating them and taxing them.

Ding ding ding!

[DJ Trashy]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

Right. They completely mis-managed their money. They bought jets and Carribean islands and 15 houses and $10000 bottles of champagne. So would we have been better off without them and without the millions of jobs they supported, whether they still exist or not?

Why do you make such extreme comparisons? Why does getting rid of loopholes and tax breaks equate to completely 'getting rid of' corporations?There is no such thing.

The standard argument has been (especially in Tea Party and Grover Norquist circles) that corporations are overtaxed and over-regulated, and that if we just leave them alone they will show their true benevolent selves and provide jobs for everyone. Instead, they do what corporations do, which is to protect the bottom line and the shareholders. One of the first things they do in a recession is to lay off workers. That's exactly what they have been doing the last few years. What I am saying is this: if the existing loopholes and tax breaks didn't keep all these people employed, then the Tea Party/Norquist argument is bullshit. So why cut off that revenue from the government when it gets magnified and multiplied (less tax from corps and less employed workers to pay tax simultaneously).

So you see what I'm saying here?

Originally Posted by FletchLives

What about the billions of dollars they throw into the economy, would we be better if that money had never been spent? I'm not saying these are good people who care about their country. I am saying they will never cease exist, because they fuel our entire economic system. I hate our econimic system, it's the most vile, corrupted thing on earth. But I believe that no one, including the highest powers of our government or corporations, has the power to change that.

As far as the 'billions' they throw into the economy, I would ask you "where?" You mean the offshore tax havens? The real estate in foreign countries? The luxury items? The insanely exaggerated bonuses? That doesn't translate to the main street economy. If it did, our GDP would be sky-high!

Now, regarding power, I disagree slightly. Congress has the power to change that, by taxation and regulation. You can raise taxes to fair levels and regulate with safety and welfare in mind without killing business. Imagine where we might be now if Wall Street hadn't lobbied their way into the state of deregulation which precipitated the recent recession and housing collapse? So the power is there, and has actually been used before.

The real questions is WILL it be used. I don't have a lot of hope there either, protest or not...

[FletchLives]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

So, no response? It's been a few days.

And corporations hire millions of people. That's true. However, this is not an all-or-nothing scenario. We can agree that corporations have specific advantages in certain types of job and wealth creation while still positing that society could do a better job of regulating them and taxing them.

As far as changing that, societies have routinely overpowered certain corporations, albeit usually with the threat of violence.

I have at least 3 posts in this thread since your last post before this. I didn't address you specifically because I think other people encompassed what you trying say.

Originally Posted by DJ Trashy

Why do you make such extreme comparisons? Why does getting rid of loopholes and tax breaks equate to completely 'getting rid of' corporations?There is no such thing.

The standard argument has been (especially in Tea Party and Grover Norquist circles) that corporations are overtaxed and over-regulated, and that if we just leave them alone they will show their true benevolent selves and provide jobs for everyone. Instead, they do what corporations do, which is to protect the bottom line and the shareholders. One of the first things they do in a recession is to lay off workers. That's exactly what they have been doing the last few years. What I am saying is this: if the existing loopholes and tax breaks didn't keep all these people employed, then the Tea Party/Norquist argument is bullshit. So why cut off that revenue from the government when it gets magnified and multiplied (less tax from corps and less employed workers to pay tax simultaneously).

So you see what I'm saying here?



As far as the 'billions' they throw into the economy, I would ask you "where?" You mean the offshore tax havens? The real estate in foreign countries? The luxury items? The insanely exaggerated bonuses? That doesn't translate to the main street economy. If it did, our GDP would be sky-high!

Now, regarding power, I disagree slightly. Congress has the power to change that, by taxation and regulation. You can raise taxes to fair levels and regulate with safety and welfare in mind without killing business. Imagine where we might be now if Wall Street hadn't lobbied their way into the state of deregulation which precipitated the recent recession and housing collapse? So the power is there, and has actually been used before.

The real questions is WILL it be used. I don't have a lot of hope there either, protest or not...

I see why we are at a misunderstanding. I took it as a given that everyone knew the coporations owned our government. Congress has the power to change the laws that fuck us over and reward heartless capitalism. But why would heartless capitalists vote to end heartless capitalism?
You want to raise the taxes on the corporations? Ok, you end up having ALL corporations follow Exxon Mobil's example and just not pay shit. Well now we're trillions more in deficit, and there's not a goddamn thing the government or the people can do about it.
Take off your idealistic goggles. You have to factor in how evil people are.

[stulagu]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

So, no response? It's been a few days.

And corporations hire millions of people. That's true. However, this is not an all-or-nothing scenario. We can agree that corporations have specific advantages in certain types of job and wealth creation while still positing that society could do a better job of regulating them and taxing them.

As far as changing that, societies have routinely overpowered certain corporations, albeit usually with the threat of violence.

Yep. Complete collapse and then restart would fail in epic proportions, but starting to let the public see what is going on will lead to regulations and other barriers for these companies. It will be slow and arduous, but we got into this mess slowly, too...it will take time to fix it.

Look at what is happening with bank charges. Now that the government is regulating their hidden fees, they have to be more transparent and outright charge. And the consumer masses will dictate how free checking will work in the future by making choices for themselves and not just blindly go with what they are told in tv ads.