1471: Ted's American Dream?

[Leentron3030]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

that's what I'm saying man! Protest the fucking banks! Protest Fed Rez! Protesting the fact that the rich are rich is getting us no where.
These people aren't protesting the tax codes that make it possible for large corporations to pay nothing to the government. They're protesting Wall Street.

They are protesting the banks, the tax codes, and a lot more things. You just haven't heard it or seen it apparently. Those that don't have an understanding of specifically what is wrong is due to a few reasons, but they still have a right to be mad. They have a general understanding and knowledge that they are being screwed over and treated unfairly. A lot of the reason has to do with the fact that our tax code is so incredibly lengthy and difficult that most don't understand it.
"Well this loss is carried back 2 years and forward 5, this one can only be carried back 2, this one can only be carried forward 20, and this one can only be carried forward $3000 a year for as many years as necessary." WHAT THE HELL?! They make it incredibly difficult and lengthy so the majority won't want to pay attention, so I don't really expect everyone to know what is specifically going wrong.

You keep mentioning that they are protesting Wall Street. Protesting at Wall Street makes sense for multiple reasons.
A) it's the terms political candidates use; main street vs wall street. Protesting at Wall Street means 'main street' wants 'wall street' to know they aren't going to let this continue.
B) like I said, it's where the bankers are. It's where Wall Street makes it's $$. So they are going to where they are.

Originally Posted by FletchLives

Tax codes will not fix the fact that the wealthy stay wealthy and the poor stay poor... until they make themselves wealthy.

Yes they will, it's tax codes that make it so the wealthy can process their money with lower tax rates while we pay higher ones. About half of the income the uber wealthy make in a year is considered investment income, which is taxed at the capital gains rate of 15%. This is the same rate that people who make ordinary income of $35,000 or less pay. Hence why Warren Buffett stated he gets taxed at the same rate or lower than his secretary. Also, I believe this tax rate is only for the first $106k and anything above is taxed at 2%. This is why Buffett and Gates are advocating a Wealth Tax to make up for the loophole that lets the uber wealthy pay a lower % than the middle class.

**Edited to add** but you're right that it isn't solely tax code. Tax code revision will help though. We also need to start getting collective bargaining rights back and continue to institute laws or incentives to keep/create jobs here. But that's another argument.

Originally Posted by FletchLives

Dave, re-investing revenues means taking money from one person and giving it to someone else. How is that fair to the rich who worked hard to get the money they have?
So, in your perfect America it doesn't matter if you work every day, or sit on your ass all day, because the wealth is distributed.

Do you consider what they did to the economy and to hundreds of thousands of people 'hard work'? If they had earned these record amounts of wealth without devastating so many other lives, do you think we'd even be having the conversation of taxing their 'hard work'? They're telling you not to tax their hard work because you, the screwed over middle class, can identify with the idea of hard work. You wouldn't want your hard work taxed so why request it of them. But you aren't taxing their hard work. What the middle class is requesting is fair taxation.

[FletchLives]

Wait... so they're protesting EVERYTHING that's wrong with EVERYTHING to do with the economy ALL AT ONCE?
I don't believe so. I think this Occupy Wall Street protest is so misguided and vague that you are projecting upon this protest anything and everything you don't like about where we stand economically.
I agree with you that the things you listed are terrible and wrong. But you can't just jumble together all these different things you don't like and claim that is the reason these people are protesting WALL STREET. Why not toss in some "Save the dolphins" and "Knox is guilty" signs since your just throwing everything into this?


Leentron, do you really believe that everyone who has money are greedy, shady thieves? That's the only way your logic makes sense.


Before this goes any further, will you guys please research what is being protested? I thought that's what we were discussing. Instead all of you are just saying things that are wrong with this country. Or saying that the protesters are there just because they know they were fucked over some how. Either you are all misguided on what the protest is about, or the protest is so vague that everyone is using it as a catalyst for complaining about anything they don't think is fair.

[FletchLives]

FUCK IT FLAT RATE TAXES FOR EVERYONE

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

Dave, re-investing revenues means taking money from one person and giving it to someone else. How is that fair to the rich who worked hard to get the money they have?
So, in your perfect America it doesn't matter if you work every day, or sit on your ass all day, because the wealth is distributed.

It absolutely does mean that.

It doesn't, however, mean giving it directly to poor people in cash. Redistributing wealth into social goods and services has tremendous value. It's why all these countries do it.

Plenty of people work hard. Not everyone becomes rich as a result of hard work. Some people become rich without working particularly hard. The goal of this redistribution should be to encourage hard work while focusing that work to maximize economic and social benefits. It's much better for a hard worker to have received medical training, since their hard work helps out society significantly more than someone who works hard but only knows how to do menial tasks.

It's also worth noting that the wealthy benefit significantly more from many of the things government does, most notably national defense, as they have more property to defend. The same is true of many other services and benefits. As such, it is hardly ridiculous to ask the wealthy to pay more than someone who derives almost no benefit from our military.

These protesters are disorganized and angry, but their anger seems to derive from the cartelization of wealth, a problematic and socially unpopular process.

It's also worth noting that ownership comes from social interpretation and meaning, and it is possible for a society to re-define what one may own, or how much of something they may own. The wealthy are still at the behest of the society they live in, and it would behoove them to address the cartelization problem, because the alternatives aren't very good if they don't.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

FUCK IT FLAT RATE TAXES FOR EVERYONE

Why is that fair?

[Leentron3030]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

Leentron, do you really believe that everyone who has money are greedy, shady thieves? That's the only way your logic makes sense.

Of course I don't. And I don't know how that's the only way my logic would make sense. I mentioned Gates and Buffett advocating a wealth tax. Do you think that I believe they are greedy and shady when they themselves recognize that their class is being under-taxed?

[FletchLives]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

It absolutely does mean that.

It doesn't, however, mean giving it directly to poor people in cash. Redistributing wealth into social goods and services has tremendous value. It's why all these countries do it.

Plenty of people work hard. Not everyone becomes rich as a result of hard work. Some people become rich without working particularly hard. The goal of this redistribution should be to encourage hard work while focusing that work to maximize economic and social benefits. It's much better for a hard worker to have received medical training, since their hard work helps out society significantly more than someone who works hard but only knows how to do menial tasks.

What about the people that did work hard to become wealthy? What about the doctors and scientists with hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans to pay. But fuck that, take a higher percentage of their money so they can't afford their debts. Why? That's what they get for being rich, I suppose.

It's also worth noting that the wealthy benefit significantly more from many of the things government does, most notably national defense, as they have more property to defend. The same is true of many other services and benefits. As such, it is hardly ridiculous to ask the wealthy to pay more than someone who derives almost no benefit from our military.

Wow. The wealthy owe more to the government because they have more to lose if someone took over our country? Did you really just say that?
We all have 100% to lose. Just like we all have an infinite amount to gain.

It's also worth noting that ownership comes from social interpretation and meaning, and it is possible for a society to re-define what one may own, or how much of something they may own. The wealthy are still at the behest of the society they live in, and it would behoove them to address the cartelization problem, because the alternatives aren't very good if they don't.

What alternatives? The only alternative is that their wealth keeps growing, which will happen no matter how tax codes change. And it should happen. If you make a lot of money, you are entitled to your own fucking money.


Edit: By the way, I'm enjoying our spirited debate Blitz, Leen, and Dave. Not bullshitting.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

What about the people that did work hard to become wealthy? What about the doctors and scientists with hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans to pay. But fuck that, take a higher percentage of their money so they can't afford their debts. Why? That's what they get for being rich, I suppose.




Wow. The wealthy owe more to the government because they have more to lose if someone took over our country? Did you really just say that?
We all have 100% to lose. Just like we all have an infinite amount to gain.




What alternatives? The only alternative is that their wealth keeps growing, which will happen no matter how tax codes change. And it should happen. If you make a lot of money, you are entitled to your own fucking money.

This is absurd. Many government programs exist SPECIFICALLY so that student debt is easier to repay. Government-backed loans and the like. That money comes from somewhere.

And yes, the wealthy have more to lose if this country falls. That's obvious to the point of simplicity. They have more wealth. The fall of a country means its wealth will likely be sacked. They have more wealth to lose. Thus, they have more to lose. The same is true of social order, public health, and the like.

There are plenty of alternatives to the cartelization of wealth. We've seen them historically. Some are bloody, some aren't. Wealth will absolutely continue to grow, but the cartelization of wealth need not, so long as adequate measures are taken (bracketed capital gains tax, increased tax brackets, etc.) and reinvestment is smart.

Your money is not your money. It's society's money, otherwise it wouldn't BE money. You are certainly entitled to a percentage of what you make, after society takes its cut. The alternative is to move to or create a different society.

[Leentron3030]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

What about the people that did work hard to become wealthy? What about the doctors and scientists with hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans to pay. But fuck that, take a higher percentage of their money so they can't afford their debts. Why? That's what they get for being rich, I suppose.

The term 'rich' isn't what you think it is anymore. Doctors and scientists are not making $345 million a year that I know of. Otherwise I should have become a doctor instead of becoming a CPA.

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power

"by 2007, the top 400 averaged $344.8 million per person, up 31% from an average of $263.3 million just one year earlier."

A 31% increase in one year's time, wow.

[MrBrit]

Originally Posted by FletchLives

What alternatives? The only alternative is that their wealth keeps growing, which will happen no matter how tax codes change. And it should happen. If you make a lot of money, you are entitled to your own fucking money.

One of the problems I have with libertarians and the recent Republican debates is the idea that the money you earn is 100% the result of your own hard work. Now, I think that most of it is your to keep, and I think it's important for people who earn more money to keep more money (out of a sense of fairness and to give people an incentive). However, there are a lot of things the government does to enhance the ability of people to earn money. For example, education and the military are two obvious examples. If you are "entitled to all of your own money", this means that public education and national defense doesn't exist. No doubt, that's a bad system. No only could you get invaded, but with an uneducated public, you can't find workers or people to buy your goods. Try being a doctor in a third-world country, and then note the fact that you get paid next to nothing because the people you're helping have no money. But, if you're a doctor in the first-world you get paid better because your patients are educated which means they have money - and now you have more money.

In effect, I hate when people act like they're an island when it comes to their income. By analogy, it's like this: you're a farmer and you plants crops in a field. The government protects your land from theft and wild animals. It also puts fertilizer into the ground. But, come harvest time, you demand to keep 100% of your crop yield because "you earned it". You planted the crops and they're yours. All the while, you ignore the role that government played in protecting the land and fertilizing the soil. Now, it's possible for government to be overbearing - demanding too much pay for their work, but it's also possible for you - the farmer - to ignore the role the government played in creating the conditions that helped you.