1486: God's Plan

[Kultcher]

Originally Posted by ssgtballard

I have many problems with the corporate control over washington but laughable protesters who can't get their shit together don't change anything.

So what, we do nothing? I'm not convinced that the current methods of the OWS movement are the right ones, but I am convinced that it's better than just sitting back and doing nothing. There's a lot that's really shitty about the current situation, but it sure as hell isn't going to get better by itself - it's only going to get worse as corporate money buys more deregulation.

Is what's going on today really so different from the civil rights movement? Or from women's suffrage? (I'm talking in terms of tactics here, not in terms of moral legitimacy).

[amish J]

Originally Posted by Kultcher

Is what's going on today really so different from the civil rights movement? Or from women's suffrage? (I'm talking in terms of tactics here, not in terms of moral legitimacy).

glad you cleared that one up.

[amish J]

There sure are a lot of companies, employing a whole lot of people, that add up to one percent for those of us that can't do math

[ssgtballard]

Originally Posted by Kultcher

Is what's going on today really so different from the civil rights movement? Or from women's suffrage? (I'm talking in terms of tactics here, not in terms of moral legitimacy).

THe difference is they had a goal. Take a look at the Black civil rights movement now or the feminist movement now, where are they ? Did everything fix itself that now we go after Imus or TV shows and thats all there is ? THe movements do not have a goal so they splintered and fell apart and lost respect. while they did have a goal they moved mountains to get rights for the everyone.

I never said we should do nothing but really as I work my ass should I feel sorry for these little retarded college kids that dug themselves into huge loans without any possibility of finding a job complaining about debt ? How about we use the system correctly and form a lobbying group and push for transparency in DC like we were promised in 2008 ? how about pushing congress to stop taking the bribes from lobbyist ? What about realizing that its not just giant corporations who are in DC but also veterans groups, animal rights groups, retirement groups who are doing this ? What about looking at the facts and realizing the only people in the USA that are part of the 99% are the illegal immigrants who are here trying to work and cannot get any help from the govt. Other than that the 99% number does not apply to USA citizens since we have most of the money in the world.

What the cops are doing is wrong and for that I feel sympathy for the protesters but other than that they have no clue why they are there.

[RachaelBachael]

Originally Posted by ssgtballard

THe difference is they had a goal. Take a look at the Black civil rights movement now or the feminist movement now, where are they ? Did everything fix itself that now we go after Imus or TV shows and thats all there is ? THe movements do not have a goal so they splintered and fell apart and lost respect. while they did have a goal they moved mountains to get rights for the everyone.

Isn't establishing the 99% v 1% a mission and a goal? It's clearly pointing out they are pissed about the income inequality and taxation inequality in America.

I think we're also forgetting the part time plays into any movement. The feminist movement did not change things overnight. It took multiple protest, marches on Washington, and years before the National Organization of Women could hold meetings and conferences to decide on their goals. Slowly laws such as Title 9 were eventually passed (although an Equal Rights Amendment of the Constitution failed). Even now, with women being able to wear pants in schools and being able to hold jobs, own homes, and get lines of credit without men, there is still a 23% income inequality. NOW still exists, has lobbyists, etc. Just because there isn't substantial media coverage does not mean the "movement" isn't still out there. Same with the Black civil rights movement. The NAACP still exists for a reason.

There is always going to be disagreement in every group, and fringe members as well.


Things take time.

[amish J]

But are human rights and income equality really all that relate-able to one another? Is equal income what we really want? cause that is dangerously close to a socialist ideal. Hopefully that is not what you are insinuating.

[Blitzgal]

Originally Posted by RachaelBachael

I think we're also forgetting the part time plays into any movement. The feminist movement did not change things overnight.

Suffrage alone took eighty years.

[Kultcher]

Originally Posted by ssgtballard

THe difference is they had a goal.

I'll agree that the movement is somewhat unfocused, but that's partially because there's a lot of problems. Maybe we can solve money in politics, but if we focus on that do we give up on holding bankers accountable for the housing market collapse? Do we give up on the problems with the Fed and fiat money?

But hey, if we have to do things one at a time, let's maybe start here:

Here's some purpose: Robert Steele OWS Electoral Reform Proposal - YouTube

He's talking about this: Electoral Reform Act of 2012 3.2 (Full Text Online for Google Translate) « Public Intelligence Blog

Originally Posted by ssgtballard

as I work my ass should I feel sorry for these little retarded college kids that dug themselves into huge loans without any possibility of finding a job complaining about debt ?

On one level, I understand what you're saying. On the other, you have to look at it from the point of view of a 17 or 18 year old potential college student. I don't know about you, but I grew up being told that you could go to college for whatever you wanted and it would be your key to getting a good job. I liked writing in school, so I went in as an English major.

On the one hand you could say it's my fault for buying into the bullshit, but are we really expecting 17 and 18 year olds to know the difference? And you know maybe you can blame my parents, but honestly they weren't educated people. They didn't know the difference either. So now I've got a pretty worthless degree and about $30k in student loans before interest, and I'd say that's on the low end of things compared to many.

So neverminding whether or not it's "fair" that I have to go get a job at McDonald's or whatever the fuck; it's fine, I can do it, and a lot of people in my situation also work hard (but then a lot of others can't find a job). But am I allowed to be a little bitter that I could've just gotten that job at age 18 without a degree and be much better off financially and maybe even have advanced to the coveted position of manager at Micky D's?

[amish J]

I have collage debt too, that was my mistake not freddie or fannie. and it defiantly wasn't an Italian car manufacturer.

[Blitzgal]

College tuition is pretty clearly artificially inflated, and far more than it was a mere ten years ago. Part of the problem is that standard office jobs that previously did not require a college degree now do. The only jobs left that do not require some kind of higher education is low level menial labor and the service industry. There aren't enough jobs for everyone to flip burgers. A high percentage of Americans have to have a college degree even to do a basic cube-farm office job.

According to this article, a four year bachelor's degree at Wesleyan cost $200,000 in 2008. That's four times the cost of my tuition in 1995.

College tuition is far outpacing the cost of living - Aug. 20, 2008