Latest Episode
Play

Go Back   Keith and The Girl Forums Keith and The Girl Forums Show Talk

Show Talk Talk about the show

View Poll Results: Whose side were you mostly on?
Chemda's side 60 25.53%
Tom's side 109 46.38%
KEITH MALLEY WOOOOOOO!!! 66 28.09%
Voters: 235. You may not vote on this poll

Like Tree1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-15-2012, 10:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
Senior Member
57-hour Marathon 2015 Kickstarter Backer
 
invader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 578
A ton of great talking points on today’s show, so many in fact that I’d have to re-listen with a pad and paper to keep track of them all. But off the top of my head in no particular order.

Tom did clearly say that he felt women were better nurtures and because of that, he feels that a lesbian couple would make better parents than a gay (male) couple. I get the feeling he was half joking and spent the rest of the time back tracking and rephrasing. But just ended up deeper in a hole.

There are inherent genetic differences between men and women. Those differences I believe are complimentary though. There is no one attribute that one has that is better than the other, each side is lacking something and needs the other to fulfill that role, Evolutionarily speaking at least. If the goal is to survive and then procreate to pass on your own genetic marker, then yes a man and woman is the only combination that will accomplish that and millions of years of evolution have molded us to be really good at accomplishing that. Everything else are just artificial social constructs that we set up after we evolved big enough brains to realize there is safety in numbers, and living in more organized groups would make it easier to accomplish our goals. But that's just being really reductive and it ain't that simple.

Its impossible to measure successful parenting, its only really possible to know if someone fucked up as a parent. Did Bill Gates parents do a better job, than the parents of the average Joe who is happy with his wife and kids and lives in a nice home? Isn’t that subjective? Did Steven Spielberg parents do a better job raising him than Charles Mason’s parents did with Charles Manson? It isn’t as subjective anymore. Its hard to say that any one group is better apt at raising a child into adulthood since there isn’t a clear and definitive line that represents that process. "Better at parenting" is a such a nebulous term it is almost silly to discuss. Though it is interesting that Tom associates nurturing with better parenting. It helps to give some insight on his own childhood.

This is more of a question but, if a person is transgender is it as simple as one genders mind being in another’s body and treating them as the gender they identify with? If a male was raised and treated as a female their whole life, and was expected to conform to female gender roles, I would assume that that male would have an entirely different set of issues and emotional reactions when it comes to relationships and how they should interact, in general, with the opposite sex or people in general as compared to the average male, who was raised as a male and had to live up to the same expectations. So I would think as a transgender man, Lauren’s childhood experiences would have mirrored more closely that of a gay woman although mentally she identifies as a man. If this wasn’t the case wouldn’t it imply that gender roles are much more inherent than people would like to admit?

White males don’t have it easy, but they do have it easier than a lot of minorities and women. Which is an important thing to remember, especially when you keep in mind like Keith said; “…it isn’t all that easy.” Although things have gotten much, much easier multiply that difficult time that Keith was talkign about by .5 and you’ll get a much better idea of what women and most minorities go through. Everyone has to bust their asses to succeed, but on top of that imagine someone not taking you seriously just because you are a woman. Where if you were a white male in the same position, you wouldn’t have to prove yourself as much once you are in a position of power. Just the fact that you are in the position your are in is enough of a proof. With that said white people/men aren’t the only ones walking around with these preconceived judgments. Every group is guilty of it, and everyone prejudges even within their own race/sex. And I do believe it is unfair to just point at the white male as the guilty party and claim they don't have a foot to stand on. You are then disregarding them just as flippantly as you believe they are disregarding you.

And some other points that I can’t remember.

Last edited by invader; 06-15-2012 at 10:59 PM.
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 10:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
axxerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 22
I have to agree with Tom 100%, and to be honest, Chemda really started to annoy me as the show went on. The comment above re: FOX news is exactly what I thought about when hearing the remarks.

We have evolved into who we are today. Our ancestors operated in a way where the men hunted for food, and the women protected the children back at the camp. The men who weren't good at hunting, died. The women who were poor at protecting their children, their children died. Multiply this many,many,many times, over hundreds of thousands or years, and we have what we have. I think this whole argument was blown out of proportion when homosexuality was brought into it. I think the root of what Tom was talking about is true. Women have "generally" evolved to be more natural when raising children.

I'm not sure why those who claim homosexuality is not a choice by using the animal kingdom to point out examples, aren't as quick to use the animal kingdom to point out that most species have one sex protecting the young.
__________________

Last edited by axxerd; 06-15-2012 at 11:04 PM. Reason: Grammar
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 12:10 AM   #13 (permalink)
Senior Member
2023 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2022 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2021 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2020 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2019 Marathon Kickstarter Backer24-hour Marathon 2017 Fundraiser Backer57-hour Marathon 2015 Kickstarter Backer38-hour Marathon 2014 Kickstarter Backer54-hour Marathon 2013 Kickstarter Backer
 
Bucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 3,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by axxerd View Post
I'm not sure why those who claim homosexuality is not a choice by using the animal kingdom to point out examples, aren't as quick to use the animal kingdom to point out that most species have one sex protecting the young.
Sort of like how the lionesses do the hunting while the male lion waits at home with the young?

Oh wait ...
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 12:40 AM   #14 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
axxerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucho View Post
Sort of like how the lionesses do the hunting while the male lion waits at home with the young?

Oh wait ...
Yeah, interesting how it worked out that way for that species eh?

Lions =/= Humans

Every species evolves differently, and different genders evolve to excel at different roles. It is what let them survive. Do you disagree with that?? It has nothing to do with equality, culture, changing times etc..., and everything to do with the fact that what Tom said makes sense and is based off of this idea.
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 01:11 AM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
2023 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2022 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2021 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2020 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2019 Marathon Kickstarter Backer24-hour Marathon 2017 Fundraiser Backer57-hour Marathon 2015 Kickstarter Backer38-hour Marathon 2014 Kickstarter Backer54-hour Marathon 2013 Kickstarter Backer
 
Bucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 3,883
The reason experienced streetfighters get their shirts off is to prevent your shirt being pulled over your head by your opponent. Makes it a lot harder to defend yourself when that happens, especially against somebody who understands grappling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by axxerd View Post
Every species evolves differently, and different genders evolve to excel at different roles. It is what let them survive. Do you disagree with that?? It has nothing to do with equality, culture, changing times etc..., and everything to do with the fact that what Tom said makes sense and is based off of this idea.
Culture also evolves buddy. You ever notice how the most advanced cultures happen to have the highest degree of equality for races/genders/sexualities?
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 01:20 AM   #16 (permalink)
Senior Member
2023 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2022 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2021 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2020 Marathon Kickstarter Backer2019 Marathon Kickstarter Backer24-hour Marathon 2017 Fundraiser Backer57-hour Marathon 2015 Kickstarter Backer38-hour Marathon 2014 Kickstarter Backer54-hour Marathon 2013 Kickstarter Backer
 
Bucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 3,883
Here's an example of some good ol' dirty shirt.

It's even more fun to grab the shirt further toward the tail and pull it all the way over the head so the arms become trapped along with the head. If that happens to you you're pretty much the other guy's bitch, at which point you're really wishing your boss had just accepted the Champagne and shut up about Rihanna.

(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 02:31 AM   #17 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
DaveNJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 1,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by axxerd View Post
I have to agree with Tom 100%, and to be honest, Chemda really started to annoy me as the show went on. The comment above re: FOX news is exactly what I thought about when hearing the remarks.

We have evolved into who we are today. Our ancestors operated in a way where the men hunted for food, and the women protected the children back at the camp. The men who weren't good at hunting, died. The women who were poor at protecting their children, their children died. Multiply this many,many,many times, over hundreds of thousands or years, and we have what we have. I think this whole argument was blown out of proportion when homosexuality was brought into it. I think the root of what Tom was talking about is true. Women have "generally" evolved to be more natural when raising children.

I'm not sure why those who claim homosexuality is not a choice by using the animal kingdom to point out examples, aren't as quick to use the animal kingdom to point out that most species have one sex protecting the young.
What evolutionary traits make women more natural or effective caregivers?

Also, why are these traits relevant in the contemporary context of parenting? It seems that modern parenting has little to do with past models, as the hunter/gatherer dynamic no longer exists.

It's certainly true that women are socialized to focus on nurturing, but that doesn't really mean anything when we're talking about ideals, because ideally men and women would be treated equally.
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 02:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
Senior Member
57-hour Marathon 2015 Kickstarter Backer
 
starscream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
What evolutionary traits make women more natural or effective caregivers?
This was explained and also you say it is "certainly true" in 3-2-1...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
It's certainly true that women are socialized to focus on nurturing, but that doesn't really mean anything when we're talking about ideals, because ideally men and women would be treated equally.
It's a very good thing then, that this discussion had very little to do with how either gender is treated.
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 03:40 AM   #19 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
txmikey45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: I live in Bryan, TEXAS
Posts: 27
Chemda was missing Tom's points. She got defensive and shut down.
chrispenney likes this.
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 05:24 AM   #20 (permalink)
Member
 
Norwegian_Fag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Norway, Trondheim
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
What evolutionary traits make women more natural or effective caregivers?

Also, why are these traits relevant in the contemporary context of parenting? It seems that modern parenting has little to do with past models, as the hunter/gatherer dynamic no longer exists.
It's a simple matter of fact that in most, if not in all, human societies women have taken care of the kids while the men were out doing stuff. Through selective breeding and adaptation that, of course, has affected female and male biology in different ways. For example, there are few who would dispute the fact that men are - in general and due to biology - more aggressive than women. What Tom is saying is that the same can be said for nurturing (which he equates to parenting skills); women are - in general and due to biology - more nurturing than men. And in that I believe he is correct.

I think a good analogy is choosing a character to play in an RPG, say Skyrim. Choosing a Wood Elf gives you an initial archery boost of 10, however that’s not to say an Orc can’t be just as good, it just means it comes easier to the Wood Elf. And this is where I think Tom overreaches, in lack of a better word. It’s probably true that women are inherently better caregivers than men, but talent and genetics can only do so much (about 10%), the rest is training.

The reason these traits are still relevant is the same reason male aggression is still relevant. Although parenting is more complex than just nurturing and caring these are fundamentals in parenting and have a lot to say in a child’s development. I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
It's certainly true that women are socialized to focus on nurturing, but that doesn't really mean anything when we're talking about ideals, because ideally men and women would be treated equally.
Women are both socialized and inherently focused on nurturing. And you are right, there’s no description of how things are that can lead you to how things ought to be. But it helps to know where you are to figure out how to get to where you want to be.
(Offline)   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
Keith and The GirlAd Management plugin by RedTyger