Isn't politics that other social tool? Seems to me that politics both in your country and in ours is successfully fulfilling that goal - even if we, the people, aren't active participants in their agenda.

ding! ding! ding! i'm not well versed in Australian politics, but here in the states the people have become disenfranchised from the process which is dangerous because we bear the burden of our situation. we were given the power to steer our ship; it was a radical thought. we got lazy and handed the wheel over to the robber barons. the citizenship is responsible for what happens to the country. if we want it back, we will have to demand it back in unison or they will continue to pick apart our still warm corpse while we watch.

changing your facebook profile photo is not demanding your liberty.

I think it's worse than that. It's been demonstrated that people vote AGAINST their best interest. Too many people are too easily fooled and can't understand the ramifications of their own actions.

I can take it locally. People in my town have been voting against a bond referendum for years that would give money to improve the schools in my town. Why? Because their taxes would go up by 5 cents per month per 10k of house assessment. That's $2.50 per month for a house worth 1/2 a million dollars! $30 a year! Will their house go down by more than $30 if the schools in town become crap? Damn right they will. But people kept voting against it. That was until a group got together and spelled all of this out and last year it narrowly passed.

So people that are involved, too many of them have no idea what they're voting for or against. They do it for ideological reasons and some abstract concept they think they understand. I believe much of the apathy comes from this very problem. Others that see this sit on the sidelines. And that's where I agree with you.

I agree that thinking people, clear thinkers, need to take back our country. Not by dividing it, but by showing where we should go. I know what I say is difficult to achieve, but it took a long time to break it. We have a long time to put it back together.

That's why I voted NO on the poll. Sure, sometimes I think I'm fooling myself to think that it's possible. But I hold on to that possibility.

Which is why Keith's idea of a new Civil War resonates with me. Down Under - despite our compulsory voting system - the level of the informal vote (ie. where people just signed their name off the electoral roll and pissed off) at the last election (2010) was somewhere close to 10%. In a country of 25 million people, that's actually significant. When you consider that our major parties Labor (libertarian) and Liberal/Nationals (conservative) can barely garner more than half the vote at any stage, the apathy is endemic. I've argued that a Civil War would do our country good - but since no one gives a fuck, the political class can just go wild.

In the past, I've tried to put my money into causes rather than just declaring my support, but the money usually ends up being misused so I end up pulling my money, throwing my hands up and declaring 'What's the fucking point?'

http://i45.tinypic.com/vywlz.png

Let's do it.

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/1084374_o.gif

The Romans came in and Christianized the pagan holidays and many of these holidays came from newly Christianized pagans meshing their faith and old traditions together.

And if Christians are to obey all the old laws, we shouldn't eat shellfish and should stone someone to death if they wear clothing of mixed fibers. We should have multiple wives and send the women away when they are on their period.

I think most rational Christians look at the OT as guidelines for the betterment of the people (shellfish and pigs are bottom feeders, so maybe they AREN'T the best to eat when you can die of infection easily) and as cultural traditions. The NT is more important to the faith of Christianity (the whole basis, really) and if you read it seperately from the OT you will not see nearly the rules and strictness...just the basic "love and accept one another"

I like it.

That said, I know a lot of people who would be willing to try being outside the Big U.S. as an experiment. We're located in a convenient spot for it and Keith wouldn't even miss the state.

I'd actually like to see the books they left out of the Bible - the ones that were debated on at the First & subsequent Councils of Nicea. Seems to me the good book was cobbled together by the pricks who one.

I have just been sick when people post things like "school unions are simply the mafia" and other talking points like this with no basis in fact. I don't know WHY people don't get that if you put money into your schools and invest in your kids, they will create a better foundation for future generations.

Compromise is considered weakness, and it is so frustrating that political parties are allowed to abide by this. I really do think Obama is in the middle range as far as his politics goes and he has shown that he wants to compromise but with all the fillibusters and rediculous pandering he (and some really good people on both sides of the spectrum) is being held back.

I'm hoping that the coup the RNC pulled on the Ron Paul supporters will wake up some of the die hard republicans. I hope they start a new party and we get some three party legit politics going on.

I love the Michele Bachmann race that is gearing up in MN. All of her points have been proven completely false and she is getting more and more crazy. The opponant is a rich guy, but he at least seems to be level headed, so hopefully people will see the light and get that crazy bitch out of office.

We need more people in politics like Al Franken (and I'm totally serious). Someone that is really savvy, doesn't take himself too seriously and actually writes legislation!

A friend of mine on facebook said he'd love it if there was a political app where you could direct message your representatives and follow their votes (with politifact checking the actual facts). I like that idea, make it EASY to be involved in politics and maybe, just maybe, people will start to care again.

And Sparrow, everything you said is golden.

I have a couple friends that went through seminary and asked about these books (that is a concern of mine as well). Apparently, a lot of study has gone into authenticating the books.

With the book written by Mary Magdeline, there were references to things that occured hundreds of years apart...so they unauthenticated it simply because one person couldn't have written it. They also paid attention to writing styles, timelines, and multiple references to the same story with basically the same facts.

I used to think it was just a random thing where a group of guys got to pick and choose what went it, but there was some thought that went into it.

The problem is there is so much BS rhetoric that trying to follow it is impossible. Because now it's about the rhetoric and not the issues!

That would be great (the app) if it could be simplified.

Just in the world of education alone I can't believe the politics. So I can't IMAGINE how rediculous it is to be in actualy politics.

I wrote Amy Klobuchar an angry letter because she passed legislation that said pizza counts as a vegetable and she sent me a very nice email back saying that in order to pass legislation on much larger issues, she had to pass the pizza one because it was tacked on and it had to be a yea for the entire bill. She is also under fire because she moved her family to DC with her (she has a little girl with special needs) so her primary residence isn't in MN anymore.

This sort of thing really bothers me...the many obsticles set up to keep her from doing her job and passing the bills that really matter.

Oh yeah, we use lots of traits to categorize each other into a hierarchy, like race, religion, gender, sexuality, etc.

And the other books of the Bible that you're talking about in another post are the Apocrypha. As you said, history is written by the victors. Another problem with taking the Bible literally is that this text has been translated and edited many times over. We're basically playing a game of telephone with the people who wrote it thousands of years ago. And we keep changing it in modern times, as well. Evangelicals didn't like what Exodus 21:22-25 had to say about fetal death, so they changed it to sound more "pro-life":

Mischief follows in partisan Bible translations

The fact that there are clear examples in modern times of the Bible being altered to align with current political stances is pretty strong evidence that it is the word of man, and not the word of an omnipotent deity.

Superb blog post and indeed it addresses so much of the issues I have with the 'bastardization' of Christianity by successive revisionists who, ironically, have positioned themselves quite comfortably in the political classes so as to further revise and conquer with their ideaology.

Something Michael Khalili and Myq Kaplan discussed on Chenda's last WMN was the notion of our moral compass. The question was asked - where does aetheism draw its moral fabric from and I think they answered along the lines of aetheists in the main being able to recognize what is essentially good because they aren't encumbered by a specific dogma. I think that's how it went anyway. That's an appealing ideal.

I have always struggled with the view that the Bible is written by God through man...I just keep thinking about if man is flawed, then even writing down God's words would have flaws to them...but I think the church is nervous to give even an inch on this simply because the world comes tumbling down if you start to question too much.

I am such a fan of any sort of religious leader having to learn the original texts and the history behind the texts to teach it. So many evangelical denominations today have pastors that just feel called and start preaching. I'm Lutheran because our pastors have to learn Greek and Hebrew and really dive into the original writings to understand the context and original meanings. A good example is the "women should be quiet and submissive" quotes in the Bible which mean something totally different than most people think.

wait.... are you guys saying the Bible isn't REAL!?!?!

I don't agree with the argument that we would find other ways for us to separate ourselves. I think we are social beings who have the ability to recognize that getting along is better for the greater good, have empathy and are highly intelligent. That is why we ended up being the most successful species, because we started working together.

Religion erases empathy and stunts intelligence.

I don't know about that...yes, a lot of evil has been done because of religion, but a lot of horrible things happened because we're human and that seems to be what we do best.

It is because we're social beings that we flock to beings like us to find a place to belong. Whether it is religion, or politics, or race, or financial status, we group together.

But we do already use other ways to separate ourselves from each other. Nationality is a big one, for instance. And race. Even gender and sexual preference.

That's just the bad side of our survival instinct. The good side is cooperation and empathy, like you said. Humans are social animals and we do literally need one another to survive.

I agree with both of ya'll.

That is the OT not NT...I think most Christians realize the Moses did not personally write the first 5 books of the Bible. I don't think the stories were written as a politcal agenda, though...

the Catholics are quickly losing ground, especially since some of their own are turning away from their strict beliefs...a group of nuns was just disbanded and a man was put in charge of them because they were too liberal, we'll start to see their obvious contradictions come to light more and more.

And the church got their money from taking land and espionage, they didn't get rich off of brothels.

I'm going to need to see some support and facts on this...I've studied it as well, and nowhere have I been taught that the Catholic church made it's money from brothels. Yes, they turned convents into basically brothels, but you're saying that they made their money this way, which suggests this was the main source of income...

Stuff like this both gives me hope for and turns me off towards religion. Like how can so many people realize that huge parts of their belief system is complete bullshit but still organize against gay rights, abortion and protect child molesters? It's just so odd.

There are plenty of Christians that support social issues and that realize seperation of Church and state is important. I'm a Lutheran, and we broke away from the Catholics hundreds of years ago...it sucks to lump us all together, though I understand why it is done. (but the Catholics are the molesters, not all Christians)

I am attending a church that belongs to a denomination that is anti gay and doesn't allow women to be pastors. I totally disagree with these views. However, it is VERY hard for me to find a church that meets the main reason why I go to church (a knowledgable pastor that knows the Bible and how to teach it, good music, a healthy environment, and that I can take something from each week spiritually). I have made enemies in my church speaking out against the social views, but I have also had people privately thank me for being vocal about my social views.

There are Christians that line gay pride parades with signs saying "I'm sorry" apologizing for the church's attitude. Eventually, enough will get the courage to do the same. It will take a LONG time to turn the established denominations around, but I hope it happens.

I think a good amount of logical Christians, when argued with respectfully, realize that when boiled down, the very basics of Christianity is about loving everyone, no matter who they are. Whether that gets translated to "I don't agree with you, but wont' judge you" or "hate the sin, not the sinner" or "by golly, just because you're gay it doesn't mean you're not a good person" or "I don't care who you are, lets all hold hands and pray" I don't know...but these next couple decades will definitely be tumultuous ones for Christian traditions.

I just photographed a wedding of two women that are very devoted Christians, their wedding was way more spiritual and emotional than most straight weddings I've shot, and it meant even more seeing these families embrace their daughters for who they are. I was moved to tears many times.

Ok, wait, so ONE text book said this? and it was in ONE instance?

I don't want to be....mean....but you studied this topic in school and can't spell "the Vatican?"

Are you talking about the Borgias?

I think that's what bothers me the most. People will boycott a chicken joint but then go to a church with the same views or worse. It's like they are the mass of the flock but they are scared to actually actively get a change. Why the women of all these churches that don't allow women as pastors wouldn't just join up and leave? I don't know.

Like you said your church "Lutherans" left and formed what they thought was a better situation. (I'm not even getting into the child molestation thing but I've seen it in more than the Catholic church. See: Eddie Long)

It's just sad cause as long as people are just happy to have a place to go on Sunday's they're going to continue to let all social change fall to the wayside.

I don't leave because I can understand their view on it even though I don't agree with it. As long as it isn't "women are weak so they can't be pastors" and I am not treated as a lesser person (which I was at one church I left) then for me the overall benefit is better than nothing. Kind of like being a democrat, I don't like everything about them, but I believe in most of it, so I stay but still make my mind known.

I'm not saying Lutherans don't abuse kids at all, I think they are more passive aggressive and belittle children. I think a lot of the Catholic sexual abuse is because 1) the celebacy (nuns sexually abuse too) and 2) the job can attract people prone to molesting kids, oh and 3) the church was so afraid to expose it, that they ended up encouraging it via looking the other way.

I agree that it is sad, but not everyone can be activists. At every other church I went to or worked for I caused problems...same with pretty much my entire educational history since middle school. I've been beaten down so much and made so little headway, that at this church I decided to not be so vehement and do things with a gentler (quieter) hand.

Yelling your views at someone who doesn't believe what you're saying does nothing. Showing compassion and quiet respect yet holding your ground with your views and even maybe compromising gains a whole lot more ground. Of course, this is just my experience...

I have been google searching for an hour and seriously can't find anything to back up what you are saying...and I'd be worried if a college graduated you where you can't spell one of the most important words in your main studies.

Eat fish on Fridays...

Why?

Because the fishmongers appealed to the Pope that their fish wasn't being bought enough. He decided that he would declare Friday, "fish eating day!" Religion or politics?

This story repeats itself over and over again.

Even the kosher laws...people eat pigs...they die. People eat shellfish...they die. DON'T EAT THOSE THINGS!!!! Make up a reason why because the science of the day can't say WHY. A good idea? At the time, absolutely. Today? Outdated.

Now that we can see at a microscopic level, bugs are being found on fruit. Eating bugs on fruit invalidates the fruit being kosher. We could never see it before and ate it without a thought of kosher/non-kosher. Is the fruit kosher? IMO ridiculous to even discuss.

I always thought it was because [Saint] Peter, the first Pope, was originally a fisherman. A bit of a head-nod to the guy who inherited the duty of Head God-talker from Jesus.

Oh nah I know why you do it. It's just sad is all. And I think most religious people are more like you but still allow those who are bigots, zealots and assholes to represent you because they are the most vocal. I wish ya'll would revolt and reclaim your faith from them instead of just going along to get along.

No, it is more about letting politics and religion coexist. I know it will be an uphill battle...but I can seperate my church from state. The general population I know aren't bigots or assholes.

The whole pig and shellfish thing is Jewish/Hebrew tradition and it is because both are bottom feeders and eat unclean things which can make you sick. It is a health concern, though not nowadays (possibly like getting your boys circumsized). There are many that still eat kosher for health and not religious reasons.

If I were to compile y'all's definitions of "god", "church", and "christian", I would be as against them as you are. Similarly, if I asked a bunch of Republicans to describe the Democrat agenda (and vise versa) I would agree with the wrongheadedness of the "other side". Anytime you have a group defining their opponent the definition is going to be a caricature. But let us who claim those labels define ourselves.

Add to the mix people like Keith who think their experience, in his case a rigid Catholic background, is the only version of a broad group and who seemingly can't think outside of that box, you are going to get a skewed view. Not all christians operate like Catholics, in fact many christians don't count Catholics as real christians.

My experience as a christian proves to me that god is pro-gay-marriage. I think god is love and expressions of love are expressions of god. Personally I think we should follow the model many other nations do and have the state sanction a civil marriage for contract, property, insurance, and other legal reasons, and have the various religious groups provide for their own blessings as they see fit. Separate church and state.

I am pro-choice but anti-abortion. I wish there were no need for abortion but the decision should be the woman's, and if she so wishes in consultation with her partner, doctor, spiritual adviser, or whoever. Keep it legal, safe, and rare. I once saw a video of pro-life protesters being asked, once abortion is illegal, what should be the prison sentence for a woman who gets one. They all just stumbled and said we should pray for them. Think through your argument, sheeple; if it's illegal, it's a crime and we send people to prison for crimes. It cannot become illegal again. Our society owes it to women who find themselves in a crisis pregnancy many avenues of support so that the pregnant teen doesn't have to live in fear of her parents and the working poor woman doesn't have to live in fear of losing her job if she has to take maternity leave. And the "people of faith" on the sidewalks with the huge posters of aborted babies have a greater responsibility by dint of the commands in the bible they adhere to to assist the needy.

I believe the theory of evolution and the big bang theory. I just happen to believe that these are the tools god used to create the world.

The first five books of the Hebrew scripture were written centuries after the fact and were not meant as historical documents. Their purpose is to convey Truth, not Facts, just as Aesop's fables do. No six day creation, no snake with a piece of fruit for Eve. And by the way, it doesn't say the Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. It says when Abraham got to Egypt they were completed for hundreds of years already. The slaves worked on other building projects.

I have learned over the years and through lots of pain and loss that the only honest way to pray is to say "please help". If I tell god what I need or ask him for something specific, that's just dumb. If he's who I believe he is, he already knows what I need better than I do. "Not as I will, but as you will."

Why do the innocent suffer? What about huge natural disasters? I don't know.

You can throw a bunch of "oh yeah, what about..." stuff at me and I don't care. Yes, the church(s) through the years have been made up of sinful people doing shitty things. Every group of humans has that same track record. Jesus never said "My church will be perfect, or even good", he just said "the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

Like Jeffrey Joseph said, what matters to me is I love Jesus and he loves me, and you.

Oh, and I don't donate money to general funds because I don't want my money going to things I don't approve of.

I'm constantly amazed how people who are seemingly normal, intelligent, and/or of the same community, can believe in horse shit like organized religion.

Look into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, because you just employed it with your post.

I grew up Christian, in the Methodist faith. My father was very active in our church, taught Sunday School, performed the liturgy, etc. Then he died, and my congregation freaked the fuck out. They had no idea how to deal with a 40 year old widow and her young kids. So they chose to not deal with us -- by effectively ostracizing us. Because we made them feel weird.

By that point I was already approaching agnosticism -- I was that annoying kid in Sunday school who asked where the dinosaurs fit into history, and where did Cain find his wife if he and Abel were the first kids on the planet? I still remember how truly terrible I felt as a child when I was informed that all of life's hardships were the fault of women, because of Eve. Church is what turned me into a feminist (that and realizing that my mother worked all day and then came home every night and worked again, until late in the evening).

So by that point I wasn't much of a believer, but church to me was community -- a group of people who support each other in times of need. And our community tossed us out rather than be inconvenienced by us when we needed them the most. That was the final straw for me, and I haven't looked back since. My mother has since changed churches, and the one she goes to now seems pretty open-minded. But I'm done. Organized religion hasn't been good for the world and it wasn't even good on a personal level for me. And my story is mild in comparison to people who have been kidnapped and forced into anti-gay programs, or told that they can't get married in the church because they are black (which just happened last month, by the way).

innocence is a human construct and means nothing in the universal grand scheme. events happen to people. nature doesn't take into account your heart situation or provide divine protection. a wolf will happily eat your baby alive. as for disasters, our atmosphere provides us relatively calm planetary weather patterns. when they come around it's likely the combination of pressure, temperature, and wind.

I'm with Myq about not getting arbitrary communities. I had my programming club when I was a kid, so I didn't need church.

Join a tennis club or something, it'll be a much better way to spend your time.