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stulagu 09-05-2012 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianAlt (Post 732648)
Eat fish on Fridays...

Why?

Because the fishmongers appealed to the Pope that their fish wasn't being bought enough. He decided that he would declare Friday, "fish eating day!" Religion or politics?

This story repeats itself over and over again.

Even the kosher laws...people eat pigs...they die. People eat shellfish...they die. DON'T EAT THOSE THINGS!!!! Make up a reason why because the science of the day can't say WHY. A good idea? At the time, absolutely. Today? Outdated.

Now that we can see at a microscopic level, bugs are being found on fruit. Eating bugs on fruit invalidates the fruit being kosher. We could never see it before and ate it without a thought of kosher/non-kosher. Is the fruit kosher? IMO ridiculous to even discuss.

The whole pig and shellfish thing is Jewish/Hebrew tradition and it is because both are bottom feeders and eat unclean things which can make you sick. It is a health concern, though not nowadays (possibly like getting your boys circumsized). There are many that still eat kosher for health and not religious reasons.

Lura 09-05-2012 01:54 AM

If I were to compile y'all's definitions of "god", "church", and "christian", I would be as against them as you are. Similarly, if I asked a bunch of Republicans to describe the Democrat agenda (and vise versa) I would agree with the wrongheadedness of the "other side". Anytime you have a group defining their opponent the definition is going to be a caricature. But let us who claim those labels define ourselves.

Add to the mix people like Keith who think their experience, in his case a rigid Catholic background, is the only version of a broad group and who seemingly can't think outside of that box, you are going to get a skewed view. Not all christians operate like Catholics, in fact many christians don't count Catholics as real christians.

My experience as a christian proves to me that god is pro-gay-marriage. I think god is love and expressions of love are expressions of god. Personally I think we should follow the model many other nations do and have the state sanction a civil marriage for contract, property, insurance, and other legal reasons, and have the various religious groups provide for their own blessings as they see fit. Separate church and state.

I am pro-choice but anti-abortion. I wish there were no need for abortion but the decision should be the woman's, and if she so wishes in consultation with her partner, doctor, spiritual adviser, or whoever. Keep it legal, safe, and rare. I once saw a video of pro-life protesters being asked, once abortion is illegal, what should be the prison sentence for a woman who gets one. They all just stumbled and said we should pray for them. Think through your argument, sheeple; if it's illegal, it's a crime and we send people to prison for crimes. It cannot become illegal again. Our society owes it to women who find themselves in a crisis pregnancy many avenues of support so that the pregnant teen doesn't have to live in fear of her parents and the working poor woman doesn't have to live in fear of losing her job if she has to take maternity leave. And the "people of faith" on the sidewalks with the huge posters of aborted babies have a greater responsibility by dint of the commands in the bible they adhere to to assist the needy.

I believe the theory of evolution and the big bang theory. I just happen to believe that these are the tools god used to create the world.

The first five books of the Hebrew scripture were written centuries after the fact and were not meant as historical documents. Their purpose is to convey Truth, not Facts, just as Aesop's fables do. No six day creation, no snake with a piece of fruit for Eve. And by the way, it doesn't say the Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. It says when Abraham got to Egypt they were completed for hundreds of years already. The slaves worked on other building projects.

I have learned over the years and through lots of pain and loss that the only honest way to pray is to say "please help". If I tell god what I need or ask him for something specific, that's just dumb. If he's who I believe he is, he already knows what I need better than I do. "Not as I will, but as you will."

Why do the innocent suffer? What about huge natural disasters? I don't know.

You can throw a bunch of "oh yeah, what about..." stuff at me and I don't care. Yes, the church(s) through the years have been made up of sinful people doing shitty things. Every group of humans has that same track record. Jesus never said "My church will be perfect, or even good", he just said "the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

Like Jeffrey Joseph said, what matters to me is I love Jesus and he loves me, and you.

Lura 09-05-2012 02:33 AM

Oh, and I don't donate money to general funds because I don't want my money going to things I don't approve of.

picard102 09-05-2012 03:10 AM

I'm constantly amazed how people who are seemingly normal, intelligent, and/or of the same community, can believe in horse shit like organized religion.

Blitzgal 09-05-2012 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lura (Post 732659)
Not all christians operate like Catholics, in fact many christians don't count Catholics as real christians.


Look into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, because you just employed it with your post.

I grew up Christian, in the Methodist faith. My father was very active in our church, taught Sunday School, performed the liturgy, etc. Then he died, and my congregation freaked the fuck out. They had no idea how to deal with a 40 year old widow and her young kids. So they chose to not deal with us -- by effectively ostracizing us. Because we made them feel weird.

By that point I was already approaching agnosticism -- I was that annoying kid in Sunday school who asked where the dinosaurs fit into history, and where did Cain find his wife if he and Abel were the first kids on the planet? I still remember how truly terrible I felt as a child when I was informed that all of life's hardships were the fault of women, because of Eve. Church is what turned me into a feminist (that and realizing that my mother worked all day and then came home every night and worked again, until late in the evening).

So by that point I wasn't much of a believer, but church to me was community -- a group of people who support each other in times of need. And our community tossed us out rather than be inconvenienced by us when we needed them the most. That was the final straw for me, and I haven't looked back since. My mother has since changed churches, and the one she goes to now seems pretty open-minded. But I'm done. Organized religion hasn't been good for the world and it wasn't even good on a personal level for me. And my story is mild in comparison to people who have been kidnapped and forced into anti-gay programs, or told that they can't get married in the church because they are black (which just happened last month, by the way).

Sparrow 09-05-2012 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lura (Post 732659)

Why do the innocent suffer? What about huge natural disasters? I don't know.

innocence is a human construct and means nothing in the universal grand scheme. events happen to people. nature doesn't take into account your heart situation or provide divine protection. a wolf will happily eat your baby alive. as for disasters, our atmosphere provides us relatively calm planetary weather patterns. when they come around it's likely the combination of pressure, temperature, and wind.

DWarrior 09-05-2012 09:59 AM

I'm with Myq about not getting arbitrary communities. I had my programming club when I was a kid, so I didn't need church.

Join a tennis club or something, it'll be a much better way to spend your time.

stulagu 09-05-2012 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lura (Post 732659)
If I were to compile y'all's definitions of "god", "church", and "christian", I would be as against them as you are. Similarly, if I asked a bunch of Republicans to describe the Democrat agenda (and vise versa) I would agree with the wrongheadedness of the "other side". Anytime you have a group defining their opponent the definition is going to be a caricature. But let us who claim those labels define ourselves.

Add to the mix people like Keith who think their experience, in his case a rigid Catholic background, is the only version of a broad group and who seemingly can't think outside of that box, you are going to get a skewed view. Not all christians operate like Catholics, in fact many christians don't count Catholics as real christians.

My experience as a christian proves to me that god is pro-gay-marriage. I think god is love and expressions of love are expressions of god. Personally I think we should follow the model many other nations do and have the state sanction a civil marriage for contract, property, insurance, and other legal reasons, and have the various religious groups provide for their own blessings as they see fit. Separate church and state.

I believe the theory of evolution and the big bang theory. I just happen to believe that these are the tools god used to create the world.

The first five books of the Hebrew scripture were written centuries after the fact and were not meant as historical documents. Their purpose is to convey Truth, not Facts, just as Aesop's fables do. No six day creation, no snake with a piece of fruit for Eve. And by the way, it doesn't say the Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. It says when Abraham got to Egypt they were completed for hundreds of years already. The slaves worked on other building projects.



First off, I think the thought that humans came out of primordial soup is just as rediculous as saying a spiritual being created everything. I don't think either have enough backing to be called a fact. Both require faith of some sort.

Secondly, I don't think God is pro gay marriage. I think he is obilivious to that. Marriage is something humans came up with. A biological creator is simply concerned with procreation so the species continues. Christians are brought up to believe that a kind God cares about every little thing, and that is fine as well...but there is as little Biblical evidence that he is for gay marriage as he is for straight marriage.

THIRDLY, Aesops Fabels, in NO WAY are fact. They are cautionary tales. And there are plenty of Christians that believe every word of the Bible is God ordained and therefor happened exactly the way they said it happened. Though I'm definitely inclined to believe they were tales passed down over the generations. That also being said, I do love when historians find proof of the stories.

Fourthly, I don't know many Christians that don't consider Catholics Christians. The only Christian sect that I don't consider Christian are the mormons because their beliefs go completely against the stated Christian ones. I don't consider the Catholic faith right on the money, but I also know that in general, they believe the same things other Christians do. From holy roller evangelical to the most strict Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, they all believe in the same main things.

And what Sparrow said about the innocent suffering. She is on the money.

DWarrior 09-05-2012 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stulagu (Post 732682)
First off, I think the thought that humans came out of primordial soup is just as rediculous as saying a spiritual being created everything. I don't think either have enough backing to be called a fact. Both require faith of some sort.

The difference is we can sketch out the process of biochemical formation out of a primordial soup, test the likelihood of such events, and estimate the plausibility of that chain of events. We can investigate the consequences of our assumptions to come up with predictions, test their validity, and either reinforce our belief or invalidate it. We can then take the resulting framework to better understand our world.

If we go the spiritual being route, we close off any possibility of intellectual investigation and progress.

So alright, both require "some sort of faith," but one is much more useful than the other. UMN has pretty strong research science programs, you should go sit in on some lectures.

stulagu 09-05-2012 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWarrior (Post 732696)
The difference is we can sketch out the process of biochemical formation out of a primordial soup, test the likelihood of such events, and estimate the plausibility of that chain of events. We can investigate the consequences of our assumptions to come up with predictions, test their validity, and either reinforce our belief or invalidate it. We can then take the resulting framework to better understand our world.

If we go the spiritual being route, we close off any possibility of intellectual investigation and progress.

So alright, both require "some sort of faith," but one is much more useful than the other. UMN has pretty strong research science programs, you should go sit in on some lectures.

One can argue that having some sort of religion can help you better understand the world as well...that person would proabably be a Bhuddist =)

I'm not negating science at ALL. Evolution DOES exsist, but humans used to be sludge? That part requires just as much faith as religion does. We have more chromosomes alike to a starfish and more skeletal similarities to a dolphin rather than some apes. I feel some have pushed the humans came from apes story as hard as others have pushed that we started as Adam and Eve.

I also think spirituality has become this evil buzz word and gets completely ignored. There is value to both sides. Meditation has proven to lower blood pressure when medicine couldn't. People have been miraculously healed. Scientists have become Christians while they were trying to disprove religious theories.

Can't both sides just admit that there is so much unknown? Why is science more useful than spirtuality? I think they can coexsist nicely.


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