2013: Withdrawn

[J. Canines]

Originally Posted by Larion

I've worn a confederate flag to be an asshole.

Hey what's the deal with that Confederate Flag? As a northern boy, it's always puzzled me.

I hear some whites say it's not racist. That they're just honoring they're history, but their history is slavery. Their legacy is atrocious and their swastika is a confederate flag.

Don't progressive whites and all black people just wanna burn that flag on the daily?

[Sparrow]

the reason people cling to it, if they're not being absolute jerkwad racists (those exist, absolutely), is because as the losing side of the civil war we aren't allowed to openly take pride in our culture. like germany, we are permanently branded by our shame. i don't think that flag, it's among many battle flags, is a hill to die on, personally, but, for a lot of people it is. it's defiant. we love that shit down here. rebels and all that.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

i don't see how weakening our constitutional rights are better or easier. it's a document that is meant to be hard to change. the bill of rights aren't suggestions, they're the leg we have to stand on. America doesn't do great at tempering itself. we're a 'run through the floodgates and use well meaning legislation to bullshit folks' kind of place.

what are you sacrificing seeing a nazi tattoo? is that bigger than your right to say and express unpopular things? do you want our current administration to tell you what's kosher?

stronger tools? you mean better ways? i'd like ones that don't involve curtailing our hard won ability to dissent.

How so? You and I ostensibly want the same thing: a world in which it's unacceptable to express hate speech. That the Constitution is hard to change is a fact, not a positive thing or a negative thing. When it's hard to change things like slavery or the rights of women, that's not some point in its favor.

As far as not doing great tempering ourselves, if we're that bad, isn't that a case for laws? If we suck at tempering our negative impulses, where's the benefit in letting us go apeshit?

When I see a Nazi tattoo or have to walk by the guy with a sign by the subway saying Jews are subhuman, my blood pressure goes up. I get a tight feeling in my chest, and I get reminded that to many, I don't have a right to live here, Bill of Rights or no. Eventually, that blood pressure could catch up to me, but even if it doesn't, dealing with hate speech has a tangible, negative effect on my existence.

Now, you're certain that that guy outside the subway is better than the alternative, but guess what? Other countries manage to pull it off so that my life could be better without substantial detriment. "This is America, we have traditions" is a shitty explanation as to why I have to worry about my blood pressure when I head to the subway after work.

As for conflating hate speech with expressing something unpopular? Bullshit. You're moving the goalposts. Other countries don't have to choose between an Orwellian state and a world in which hate speech runs rampant.

But again, you said "there are better ways". That was days ago. What is the better way for me to deal with the guy expressing hate speech about Jews outside my subway several times a week?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

How so?

As far as not doing great tempering ourselves, if we're that bad, isn't that a case for laws? If we suck at tempering our negative impulses, where's the benefit in letting us go apeshit?

When I see a Nazi tattoo or have to walk by the guy with a sign by the subway saying Jews are subhuman, my blood pressure goes up. I get a tight feeling in my chest, and I get reminded that to many, I don't have a right to live here, Bill of Rights or no. Eventually, that blood pressure could catch up to me, but even if it doesn't, dealing with hate speech has a tangible, negative effect on my existence.

Now, you're certain that that guy outside the subway is better than the alternative, but guess what? Other countries manage to pull it off so that my life could be better without substantial detriment. "This is America, we have traditions" is a shitty explanation as to why I have to worry about my blood pressure when I head to the subway after work.

As for conflating hate speech with expressing something unpopular? Bullshit. You're moving the goalposts. Other countries don't have to choose between an Orwellian state and a world in which hate speech runs rampant.

But again, you said "there are better ways". That was days ago. What is the better way for me to deal with the guy expressing hate speech about Jews outside my subway several times a week?

because we can't trust the government to temper its thirst for power. is what governments do. once you relinquish some, it's 10 fold difficult to get back.

the first amendment is more than a tradition. i am certain the few wackadoos outside subways and blathering about are better than the government nannying my speech or expression. i'd rather not shy away from the dirty, ugly, gross things. they should be in full fucking light. i want every word and every thought in my arsenal; for me personally, to make art. i can eviscerate these people in public. i need the same protections they have to do it.

[da_ticklah]

It's also the flag of traitors who wanted to leave this country, oddly enough the people flying that flag now are more likely to extol American exceptional'ism than the average American.

Originally Posted by J. Canines

Hey what's the deal with that Confederate Flag? As a northern boy, it's always puzzled me.

I hear some whites say it's not racist. That they're just honoring they're history, but their history is slavery. Their legacy is atrocious and their swastika is a confederate flag.

Don't progressive whites and all black people just wanna burn that flag on the daily?

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

because we can't trust the government to temper its thirst for power. is what governments do. once you relinquish some, it's 10 fold difficult to get back.

the first amendment is more than a tradition. i am certain the few wackadoos outside subways and blathering about are better than the government nannying my speech or expression. i'd rather not shy away from the dirty, ugly, gross things. they should be in full fucking light. i want every word and every thought in my arsenal; for me personally, to make art. i can eviscerate these people in public. i need the same protections they have to do it.

You've answered nothing that I just wrote. If you can't trust the government to temper its thirst for power, how can you trust the government in the context of our current free speech rules? You're just uttering platitudes about government override.

We restrict speech in this country. We have from the start, be it the Alien & Sedition Acts or our rules now regarding dangerous speech.

But let's get into the real thick of it: you're fine with trading off the damage that hate speech deals in order to assuage your concerns about government overreach affecting your art. Never mind the fact that other countries manage to pull that off, here's the kicker:

You don't give a shit about the damage hate speech deals. This isn't about shying away from the gross things, it's about protecting people from real, physical harm. Hate speech has real, tangible physical effects. Persistent exposure to it can reduce lifespans. The reason countries regulate it is because its effects are tantamount to assault. We know this. We can measure things like hormone levels, blood pressure, etc. after exposure to hate speech. Prolonged/ongoing exposure does irreparable damage.

But you don't care about that. You conflate exposure to ugly things with hate speech, which is a whole load of garbage. Nobody here is advocating for sanitizing the world. Mitigating hate speech is wholly different, and people recognize that. Heck, entire countries recognize that.

Again, you said there are better ways. What better ways? How do I better deal with the physical damage inflicted by hate speech on my commute?

You claim to want a world where these hatreds are both entirely public and dealt with through "better ways". That's fucking impossible, so how about you recognize that all you want is the former, and you don't actually care about the damage?

[thirteen]

I'm not sure about the tattoos or chat room masturbation, but Keith is right about Anthony. Anyone defending him is probably emotionally invested in his show and they can't see what's going on in front of them. He's a racist, plain and simple.