2131: Family Man

[dayofthehippo]

Patrick Dixon Mugshot | 01/27/14 Tennessee Arrest//tennessee.arrests.org/Arrests/Patrick_Dixon_16190726/[/URL]

[robotparker]

Wait, I voted yes on the poll but I just remembered that I misremembered about misremembering. Is it too late change it? I'm a veteran, by the way (probably).

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Irobeth

I think this is concisely Chemda's point of view and mine, thank you for putting it in words.

In addition to this, though; if the two discover they are genetically related they owe it to their prospective children to be tested for genetic disorders. The better (ethical?) thing to do is not risk having children if their children will be at risk for any such disorders.

And then you go on to talking shit about the pope's decisions? I don't agree with the church at all but I think it is interesting that Keith shits on incest as a lifestyle choice (outside of the abuse approach) so much considering how much he shat on organized religions for hating homosexuals.

What makes "I'm telling you what's right" and "it is/should be illegal" okay in the case of incest and not of homosexuality? What makes you a better authority on morals than anyone else?

It wasn't until 2003 that the Supreme Court struck down homosexual sex being illegal nation-wide. If that has room to change, this does too. Nobody should have the right to legislate what two consenting adults do with eachother in private, whether or not anyone agrees with it morally.

Okay, but this is something that has already been hashed out over and over again in the other thread. Even if you think "consensual incest" should be okay, how would you determine consent under those circumstances? The social/legal power that we give to family members makes meaningful sexual consent between family impossible.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Lord of the Cock Rings

It's my opinion, and it's an opinion shared by the society I live in. It is reflected in the laws we have in place as well as our cultural practice. The society I live in has a lot of opinions about sexual consent, with laws to boot. I'm glad it does.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

The social/legal power that we give to family members makes meaningful sexual consent between family impossible.

social power. teachers have that. so do bosses. cops. doctors. we have to trust these people. it is still not a crime for two adults to cross those lines. i think private policy and social stigmas do a fine enough punitive job.

what legal power between a parent and an adult child would constitute criminality? parents of adult children are not legally responsible for those grown up children.

again, your speaking to social taboos is still not justification to make criminals where there are just deviants.

consent can be given is what i'm saying. it's not 'impossible'

[Sparrow]

i think what's irking me about this is you're telling someone like me what i can and cannot consent to. it makes me a victim where the reality is i'm probably the predator on top of being a willing participant. Dave, i'd like you to stay the fucks out of my panties. and i'd like to not constantly be seen, as a woman, as a child not able to take responsibility for my own whatevers. power submission is a no shit fetish of mine and who and how and when i decide to give that up to is my own business. not even considering as the submissive, i have the power. that's inherent in the dynamic.

my being sexually attracted to inappropriate men does not in any way take away my ability to consent.

[Cretaceous Bob]

This incest conversation was silly after Chemda talked about how disgusting she found it and people should really think about how disgusting it is as a reason for why it should be illegal. It's not really a mystery why gay people have had such a problem with laws, then.

[Mandias]

Sheesh. It's like you people would even complain about someone having sex with their parent's corpse. No victim there.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

social power. teachers have that. so do bosses. cops. doctors. we have to trust these people. it is still not a crime for two adults to cross those lines. i think private policy and social stigmas do a fine enough punitive job.

what legal power between a parent and an adult child would constitute criminality? parents of adult children are not legally responsible for those grown up children.

again, your speaking to social taboos is still not justification to make criminals where there are just deviants.

consent can be given is what i'm saying. it's not 'impossible'

How would you know that? What % of harm is mitigated by just those taboos compared to having a legal structure that acknowledges that certain kinds of sex aren't consensual? Seriously, if it's a 99.9/.1 split, that'd be terrific, but I want to see where you're drawing that conclusion from.

Parents have plenty of legal power over/overlap with adult children in a host of ways. Children can stay on parents' health insurance as legal dependents through age 25. Parents can co-sign student loans that they could be legally responsible for over the next 30 years. Parents are default next-of-kin who get to make real, life and death medical decisions for incapacitated adult children. Their medical information can, within the bounds of HIPAA, be passed to their parents under certain scenarios. Parents are typically deemed the default legal caregiver for children with disabilities, even with disabilities that present after a child reaches the age of majority. Many of these same issues can come into play when power of attorney is concerned with regard to adults reaching the end of their lives.

So those are just a few, off the top of the dome.

Beyond that, the social power parents are given over children is staggering in our society. Until the age of majority, parents can legally do almost anything to their child (except have sex with them). This social and legal order is in place to specifically empower parents to control and guide their children, and that power reflects on parent-child dynamics long after a kid hits 18. That's a simple, observable psychological fact so basic that it doesn't bear scrutiny.

Guess what, Sparrow, I'm not telling you what consent is. Society is. In order for society to function, everyone can't have a different version of consent in their back pocket. It's simply impossible for a society to function like that. Don't like it? Move to a lawless area where the legal enforcement of consent is very lax. Gary Glitter did it in Thailand, so maybe Bangkok is the place for you if you want to live as your truest self.

But then, none of the sex you're describing having actually meets our society's definition of nonconsensual sex. I'm not telling you not to have kinky sex. I'm not telling you who to have sex with. All I'm telling you is that in the society that you live in, it isn't possible for a child to consent to sex with a parent. Do with that information what you will.

You're an adult, and you're living in the adult world that we share. An adult world of laws, social boundaries, rules, codes of conduct, etc. to help prevent us from hurting each other and ourselves. I've described why some of those rules are the way they are. If you find that to be infantilizing, I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes we have laws and systems in place to protect people from both others and themselves. That's really society in a nutshell, and it's about as no-shit, fully adult as it gets.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

This social and legal order is in place to specifically empower parents to control and guide their children, and that power reflects on parent-child dynamics long after a kid hits 18.

it still doesn't make two consenting adults criminals.

fuck ya for the rest of it. society blah blah blah. as an autonomous person, i get to put my vagina on anything of age that wants it without facing a judge. i don't really care if that bucks this that or the other or makes anybody else uncomfortable.

you can stop trying to save me from myself, twerp.