2161: She's Always a Woman

[marykae]

Originally Posted by Keith

I want to fight a trans man in the ring now.

And I expect praise when I knock him the fuck out.

Is it odd if I'm only willing to fight trans men? That's how people stay undefeated. They pick and choose.

Is this trans man trained in his sport? Are you? I'm not placing bets yet.

I have knocked a trans woman who is twice my size across the track because I've been training longer in my sport.

[Keith]

It might be fair to tell people what your sport is.

Also I assume you got no extra satisfaction in knocking her over. She was just another woman in your roller-derby way.

[marykae]

Originally Posted by Keith

It might be fair to tell people what your sport is.

Also I assume you got no extra satisfaction in knocking her over. She was just another woman in your roller-derby way.

I mentioned it up thread. I've been chastised by other listeners for saying "roller derby" too many times so I use it sparingly ;-)

I did get extra satisfaction. But only because of her size, not because of anything to do with her being trans.

I only say true things so you have to take me seriously.

[Keith]

Well of course you were proud because she was bigger and stronger. I didn't think it was a hate crime.

[marykae]

Originally Posted by Keith

Well of course you were proud because she was bigger and stronger. I didn't think it was a hate crime.

I have had similar experiences with cis women. I have had the reverse happen with smaller women.

Point, trans women are women and they should be treated as such.

[Professor Subterfuge]

Originally Posted by marykae

A trans woman is a woman.

Agreed. A trans woman is a woman. This is not phenomena. Historically we've always had men in women's bodies, women in men's bodies. All cultures experience this. Native American tribes had trans, (before it was trans). They were referred to as Two-Spirit People.

Modern societies are still trying to define trans. We are right now in the midst of defining trans. The medical procedures involved. The terminology. The correct behavior. It's basically a long over-due normalizing of trans.

It's sad to think that in the process of this normalization that we overlook the revelations of science. What we now know about testosterone and estrogen. The implications of imprinting gender. Recognizing and appreciating transgender should not be discounted. But neither should the facts of human biology.

I'd also like to add that trying to determine what's fair and what is not in the realm of sports, (especially with the rise of performance enhancing drugs) is a huge issue. One that long preceded any perceived 'trans as a kind of advantage.'

[Carruthers]

I've had this argument with my brother in law who insists that any male football team (UK football mind) could beat any female football team. And it's because he's framed it exactly this (non-specific) way that I say he's wrong. I think if I choose a pro female team and a bunch of random amateur blokes, including people like me, the women would win. Easily. But he still thinks I'm just being silly.

[marykae]

Originally Posted by Carruthers

I've had this argument with my brother in law who insists that any male football team (UK football mind) could beat any female football team. And it's because he's framed it exactly this (non-specific) way that I say he's wrong. I think if I choose a pro female team and a bunch of random amateur blokes, including people like me, the women would win. Easily. But he still thinks I'm just being silly.

You are correct. Even in equal skaters. An established female roller derby team will often beat a roughly equal established team of males because women are better at bonding and team work than men. Given the same situation with skaters who have never played together, the men will win from strength and aggression while the women are still trying to figure out strategy.

That said, men in my sport are starting to learn how to work together, at least in Portland. Roller derby beware!

[DaveNJ]

The issue I see here is the same issue I see on the steroid debate: is it right to ask athletic competitors to subject their bodies to substantial chemical changes with lifelong consequences in order to compete at the highest level?

A trans woman who transitions after puberty still has the lifelong athletic benefits conferred from undergoing puberty as a biological male. This means altered bone structure, changes in muscle mass, height, weight and a host of other things that allow athletic competitors to succeed. For something like competitive fighting, weight is important, but so is reach, muscle mass and body structure. Longer arms make it easier to punch. Longer legs make it easier to kick. So on and so forth.

Now, we could simply say that any athletic competitors should be able to take as much synthetic testosterone as they want. However, the knock-on effects of that could entail high school girls getting dosed with drugs to alter their biochemistry and anatomy in order to compete at the highest level.

This is both a semantic debate and a debate about what people should be allowed to do/experience in order to compete athletically. It's tough to draw cut-offs, but those cut-offs exist to preserve the spirit of competition and the merit of accomplishments. The Paralympics, for example, have strict cut-offs for how handicapped you can be in order to compete. That might seem callous from the outside, but it preserves the level of internal competition. Somebody who doesn't qualify for the games because they aren't "handicapped enough" is still handicapped, and a woman who doesn't qualify for a competition because she went through puberty as a man is still a woman. That semantic issue belies real factors that sporting bodies regulate to preserve competition between like parties.

Preserving athletic competition for women has real, tangible value for society. Women reap the benefits of competitive sport, both physical, mental and emotional, and this helps to level an already uneven playing field with men. Allowing women who went through puberty as men to compete against women who did not threatens to seriously skew the playing field, discourage women from competitive athletic participation, and encourage the use of risky chemical enhancements like anabolic steroids.

Note: this is referring to competitive athletics only. For something like intramural sport, local leagues, etc., there's no real benefit to worrying about this. Roller derby, bowling leagues, and the random round of golf don't require this level of scrutiny. The issue here is preserving a space for competitive athletics for women, a group that, with the exception of trans women who transition after puberty, does not experience a wave of physical changes resulting from testosterone. I believe that preservation has value for people who want to grow up in a world where competitive athletics is something that women can aspire to.

[marykae]

Please do some research before comparing roller derby to bowling.

The only reason this is not a professional sport is because this version is in it's infancy.

Our All Star team dedicates at least two hours a day to this sport. At least.

Whatever you think roller derby is, you are wrong.