2161: She's Always a Woman

[marykae]

Point being, roller derby is a competitive sport. These women are athletes. And the majority support trans athletes.

Feminism that does not include trans women is bullshit.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by marykae

Point being, roller derby is a competitive sport. These women are athletes. And the majority support trans athletes.

Feminism that does not include trans women is bullshit.

Okay, then every sport is a competitive sport, but I'm talking about nationally/internationally competitive sports with talent aggregation networks, training, etc. Roller derby is not that right now. Might be in the future, which would be terrific.

Once it is, though, every single issue I raised in my prior post will apply. Perhaps not as much to roller derby, given the rules and sport, in the same way that there shouldn't be gender divisions for NASCAR or Formula 1.

Feminism should and must include trans women, but feminism can also protect the principles of athletic competition between people who didn't go through puberty as a dude. Otherwise, the underlying principles of gender-segregated competition have no basis. This isn't a mutually exclusive proposition.

Feminism ought to protect trans women from exclusion and it ought to protect the notion that a woman who doesn't receive copious amounts of testosterone either synthetically or organically can be a competitive runner or swimmer or basketball player. It can do both.

[Sparrow]

where would you have trans women compete that still maintains their dignity as a female identified person and as an athlete?

[marykae]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

Okay, then every sport is a competitive sport, but I'm talking about nationally/internationally competitive sports with talent aggregation networks, training, etc. Roller derby is not that right now. Might be in the future, which would be terrific.

That's blatantly false.

I would love to discuss this with you further, but only if you can be bothered to do a little research.

Here are some search terms. "WFTDA Championship" "Blood and Thunder World Cup"

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

where would you have trans women compete that still maintains their dignity as a female identified person and as an athlete?

In sports where the benefits of going through puberty awash in testosterone doesn't confer competitive advantages (car racing, luge, bobsled, etc.) or in leagues that decide that such benefits are fine. If women's sporting bodies want to decide that the tradeoff here is fine, then I'm not going to dispute it, but right now, that's not where we're at with things like running, swimming, basketball, etc., and it doesn't seem to be where we're going.

How would you maintain a level competitive playing field while preserving the dignity of female identified persons who went through puberty in bodies with male sex organs?

I'm not going to get into it about roller derby with someone who clearly knows more about it than I do. I concede its competitive nature, and if the league wants to govern itself that way, good for them. That doesn't change the real competitive interests of other sports where going through puberty with male sex organs creates a lifelong competitive advantage.

Preserving the dignity of trans women matters. Preserving the integrity of the athletic accomplishments of women matters, too. Even a cursory glance at the history of competitive women's running shows the pressures already in place to use anabolic steroids.

Women should be allowed to compete athletically and reach their highest points in sports where synthetic and natural testosterone confer overwhelming advantages. That's the basic principle for banning steroid use, and it applies to other contexts.

[New here]

Originally Posted by Keith

I want to fight a trans man in the ring now.

Yeah. Do people who voted "fair" think that (after transitioning) a FTM trans person could come first (or be as competitive as let's say the top 10) in men's UFC?

[marykae]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

If women's sporting bodies want to decide that the tradeoff here is fine


.

This is important. I think this is something that women, and those we see fit to empower should be deciding.

The debate is great, but in the end, this should be in our hands.

Too bad professional women's sports are probably run by males. I kind of hope Roller Derby never goes pro because that shit would happen to us too.

[ghauck]

When a male transitions does she have to return 18% of her salary?

More important can she get a refund for cover charges at all the bars attended during ladies night.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by marykae

This is important. I think this is something that women, and those we see fit to empower should be deciding.

The debate is great, but in the end, this should be in our hands.

Too bad professional women's sports are probably run by males. I kind of hope Roller Derby never goes pro because that shit would happen to us too.

WNBA is run by women. Ditto for FIFA Women's Cup. Good chunk of women's Olympic sports have women on the committees or running them. US Swimming tends to switch off, and it governs both men's and women's competition. USADA has male and female committee members.

The notion that women aren't currently controlling their competitive athletic endeavors doesn't jibe with the reality of the governing bodies of these sports.

It is in women's hands and has been for a while, as it should be. They've had to handle the serious challenge here, and thus far, I think they've done a terrific job. It's a tough thing to protect athletic competition in a world where synthetic hormones are produced on a commercial scale and can deliver tangible results. It's also tough to balance the real needs for the dignity of trans athletes to be preserved with the need for the underlying competitive balance of gender-segregated sports to be preserved.

[marykae]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

WNBA is run by women. Ditto for FIFA Women's Cup. Good chunk of women's Olympic sports have women on the committees or running them. US Swimming tends to switch off, and it governs both men's and women's competition. USADA has male and female committee members.

The notion that women aren't currently controlling their competitive athletic endeavors doesn't jibe with the reality of the governing bodies of these sports.
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