2161: She's Always a Woman

[WittyReference]

Originally Posted by The Girl

Did that man transition including taking female hormones and undergo surgery or are we all just being funny?

My thought was - if the argument is that she can't fight women as her body is still to much like a mans, then could she fairly fight men? That's it. Didn't think about the other stuff.

Keep in mind the poll isn't "do you accept trans people?" or "do you see this woman as a woman?", it's really "can you physically transition to the opposite sex enough to make competitive sport fair?". In this case people's perceptions will be exaggerated more as she is in a strength sport and its easy to concentrate on her muscles. Therefore it's easy to go with your instincts, which for most of us seems to be "no".

That was my gut reaction until I started reading some articles with Fallon that were enlightening, particularly the parts about bone density, not feeling as strong or having as much endurance since she transitioned:

Grantland Q&A: Fallon Fox «

Fallon Fox responds to Joe Rogan and Ronda Rousey's claims of 'unfair advantages' in women's MMA - Bloody Elbow


This article I found from 2010 says it only takes a year of estrogen:

"It is also important to know that any athletic advantages a transgender girl or woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender girl or woman competing on a women's team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence."

I guess its her challenge to make her opponent feel its a fair fight, which won't be easy as we already know most people don't change their mind after seeing contradictory evidence to their own beliefs.

More from the kinda joking side though:

If she gets the fight she should purposely loose the first one. You know what they'll say if she wins.
How does she prove she doesn't have an advantage in taking a punch? Get punched in the head by stronger and stronger people and see which is the first to knock her out. You know, like how they work out how much load a bridge can take (thankyou Calvin & Hobbes)

[marykae]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

it's the beginning of a dialogue if we ladies could respond to it as such and not with the full force of the chips on our shoulders.

i bet there are women in the field who feel differently than you do about this issue. i think dave put forth a valid portrait of what that might look like. your baggage isn't everyone's baggage. i would encourage you to put yours down and maybe look at it from a different angle. you don't have to buy it, but it's not complete crap.

When I used the word "baggage" I did not mean personal baggage. I meant the bullshit way that ALL women are treated in society. Even the men who understand, don't really fully understand.

When I said I couldn't take it seriously, that was not meant as an attack. I honestly don't think men can step into our shoes in some instances. Sure, there are women who feel that way, but the female version of Dave may not. Basically, any woman in my sport (that I have met) that has been salty about trans athletes has been kind of a piece of shit in general. I may not agree with Dave in this thread, but he doesn't seem like a piece of shit. If that makes any sense.

[Professor Subterfuge]

Originally Posted by marykae

I honestly don't think men can step into our shoes in some instances.

Is discussing testosterone one of those instances?

[Sparrow]

i don't see him being salty. i think these are valid conversations to have moving forward with integrating trans people into mainstream life.

we have a new community coming into play with its own journey. there are things /we/ will not understand about being trans in the same way you're describing men not understanding women. so how then can we stand here and speak for them. deciding for them about their bodies and where they fit in. this is not a women's issue, it's a trans issue. if we women can talk about it with any semblance of authority so can men. the trans community shares both journeys.

[Scumhook]

Am I the only one aroused by all the women fighting in this thread?

[daemon]

[marykae]

I'm not trying to speak for trans athletes. I'm just saying that trans women are women. All women are different from one another.

Also. Dude who shows up just to be a weird pervert whose name I can't be bothered to glance back at, nobody is fighting. It's called a conversation. I'm very fond of Sparrow.

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by marykae

I'm very fond of Sparrow.

I bet you are, you dirty, dirty girl...

You should see what the two of you are doing in my imagination...


I'm in favour of violence against women, so bring on more MMA. Dude chops off his cock and gets to punch bitches. Seems legit.

[Lanfear]

I answered it's not fair because I think there must be some advantages to having gone through puberty as a male, yes absolutely your muscles/bone density go down but they go down from a higher level?
But just because it's not fair doesn't mean she shouldn't be allowed to compete, sports are not 100% fair somebody always has the benefit of being stronger/smarter/faster - tough shit get over it.

As long as a certain minimum set of conditions is met (length of time on hormones, full transition, not a doctor no clue what else) go let her compete.

[Sparrow]

i'm very fond of you, too, marykae. i think you're bad ass. i'd totally do to you all the things Scummy is jerking off to right now.