Keith and The Girl Forums - 2163: Breast in Show

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When they were talking about Manilow Way and Gay Street I was driving past Gaylord Way. I thought it was pretty important to bring this up.

Just quoting the wiki on this:

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There has been considerable controversy over whether or not Fox possesses an advantage over other female fighters. In an interview with the New York Post, UFC women's bantamweight champion Ronda Rousey said that she felt Fox had an unfair physical advantage due to having "the same bone structure a man has".

Eric Vilain, director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at the University of California, Los Angeles, disagreed, stating in Time magazine that "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males". Vilain reviewed Fox's medical records and supported her right to fight as a woman.

Vilain, who worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes, was also quoted by Time as saying that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ... including external genitalia and gonadectomy" (see sex reassignment surgery) and a minimum of a subsequent two years of hormone replacement therapy, as two years is "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". When asked if Fox could, nonetheless, be stronger than her competitors, Vilain replied that it was possible, but noted that "sports is made up of competitors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons", and said that it would be discriminatory to treat Fox differently than other athletes with potential genetic advantages.

Time also noted that, as she has neither testicles nor ovaries, Fox probably has lower testosterone levels than most of her competitors.Fox says that she has less strength and endurance than her female training partner, and that she has to make up for it by perfecting her technique.

Fox responded to the allegations made by Rogan and Rousey in a guest editorial for bloodyelbow.com. She claimed the advantage of taking estrogen resulted in bone density, which is also a side effect of taking testosterone. She challenged Rogan and Rousey to make such claims about black women who have been noted scientifically, to have the same bone density as white men. Finally she questioned how a '"male frame"' can produce the massive "punching power" that Rogan speaks of without male muscle mass behind it.

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it would be discriminatory to treat Fox differently than other athletes with potential genetic advantages.

This is Chemda's point.

Most fighters who are choosing not to fight her are doing this on a platform of "she took an elective procedure which allows her to use her genetic advantage", and that's their prerogative to do so. Ronda Rousey has a record (11-0) to protect, too. If she thinks she's at a disadvantage of course she's going to use this as a scapegoat to avoid putting her title on the line.

Fox's record is 5-1, her loss was a TKO to strikes, and only two of her victories are KO/TKO that she caused. One is an injury on the part of her opponent, two are submissions, so she's not just out there crushing face.

I know this addresses a very small portion of your post. But since both me and girl have huge crush on Ronda rousey I just want to say yes she says it ain't fair and she shouldn't fight. The part no one repeats is when asked if she would fight her she said yes " if I have to fight her I will and I'll knock her out"

Btw Ronda if your fan of Keith and the girl and read this forum. Your on both mine and my girls hall pass list just saying.

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Originally Posted by KOUNTRY (Post 842077)

Rousey has said she'd fight her if the UFC insisted, but thinks her advantage is unfair and called it "a socially difficult situation". That's all that started this entire debate (a year ago, by the way)

The bottom line is, if the athletic commission clears her to fight other women, she's good to fight other women. Past that, everyone can complain all they want but none of that holds any weight in competition.

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Originally Posted by Irobeth (Post 842079)

I know what she said. I said that much she also added that she would knock her out. That's it just wanted to add the part everyone keeps leaving out. She may not think it's fair or right but when it comes down to it she will take her on and win. She thinks anyway and I do too she is a better over all fighter than fox.

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Originally Posted by KOUNTRY (Post 842078)

Btw Ronda if your fan of Keith and the girl and read this forum. Your on both mine and my girls hall pass list just saying.

that's a fight I'd watch

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Originally Posted by FingerLakes (Post 842081)

that's a fight I'd watch

Would be either a good fight or a fast one. I think all depends on how it starts. I know fox is tearing through her opponents but... Ronda has done her fair share of romping the competition her self. Advantage disadvantage how every you stand on the matter I think Ronda is one of the few where the advantages won't be enough. She is strong fast as he'll and just a great all around fighter. Well that is if she is even training anymore now that she a big movie star ��

Love you Ronda

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Originally Posted by Irobeth (Post 842079)

I think this gets left out because it has nothing to do with the fairness argument.

If anything, it further adds to mine that she's hiding behind this as an excuse so she doesn't have to put her title on the line to someone she perceives has an advantage over her.

If she thinks she'll knock her out, why won't she take the fight? She didn't say it's to avoid setting precedent...

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Originally Posted by Irobeth (Post 842075)

Just quoting the wiki on this:

Quote:

Vilain, who worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes, was also quoted by Time as saying that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ... including external genitalia and gonadectomy" (see sex reassignment surgery) and a minimum of a subsequent two years of hormone replacement therapy, as two years is "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". When asked if Fox could, nonetheless, be stronger than her competitors, Vilain replied that it was possible, but noted that "sports is made up of competitors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons", and said that it would be discriminatory to treat Fox differently than other athletes with potential genetic advantages.

Time also noted that, as she has neither testicles nor ovaries, Fox probably has lower testosterone levels than most of her competitors.Fox says that she has less strength and endurance than her female training partner, and that she has to make up for it by perfecting her technique.

This is Chemda's point.

This post has done the best job at explaining Chemda's point in detail so far.

So it also says in the paragraph, 'to obviate male hormone related gender advantages'. This is what they've achieved, but the criticism is that that isn't sufficient from a mechanical point of view. Vilain is a geneticist not a researcher in biomechanics.

Also, Vilain is quoting predictions of how Fallon Fox should perform post hormone therapy and how Fox would have to rely on skill more than strength and endurance. In the actual fights however, the result has been reported as the opposite.

You have raised great and key points but the only thing that would convince me personally is statistical trials of the performance of transgender women in different sports post surgery compared to a benchmarked distribution of women in the same sport born with a female body. Otherwise Vilain's remarks are just speculation with the actual results in the ring appearing contrary to what he's predicting.

I think there is a point where Fallon Fox should definately be competing, but I think more analysis needs to be done before that point. That should also open up the path for more transgender women to compete in combat sports.
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