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KOUNTRY 04-15-2015 07:01 PM

She will. And I know it doesn't have anything to do with argument. That's kinda why I said I was just saying cause I have a crush on her.��

KOUNTRY 04-15-2015 07:11 PM

If your asking why doesn't she fight her now or why didn't she back when she made the comments well that's easy. Fallon fox is not now nor was she then in the ufc. You can't just say hey there I am Fallon fox had few fights kicked some ass now let me fight the champ in a organization I am not even apart of ooh and I am transgender. You got to pay ur dues.

Irobeth 04-15-2015 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOUNTRY (Post 842090)
If your asking why doesn't she fight her now or why didn't she back when she made the comments well that's easy. Fallon fox is not now nor was she then in the ufc. You can't just say hey there I am Fallon fox had few fights kicked some ass now let me fight the champ in a organization I am not even apart of ooh and I am transgender. You got to pay ur dues.

She brought that up in response to her seeking a UFC deal, though. She said she wouldn't fight her unless the UFC insisted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallon Fox
"They may throw all kinds of backwards, bogus bone density or bone structure arguments in it to possibly save face if they lose — because they sense that people are ignorant on bones within sport, but at least some of them are the real deal in the way of fighting."

I'm not saying her reasoning is or isn't valid, just that if she's confident she'd knock her out, why is this an issue?

If the UFC does force her, and she happens to lose, she's on record protesting it as an unfair advantage.

KOUNTRY 04-15-2015 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irobeth (Post 842092)
She brought that up in response to her seeking a UFC deal, though. She said she wouldn't fight her unless the UFC insisted.



I'm not saying her reasoning is or isn't valid, just that if she's confident she'd knock her out, why is this an issue?

If the UFC does force her, and she happens to lose, she's on record protesting it as an unfair advantage.

The issues is she is transgender that's why they asked Ronda and others in ufc. You only hear about Ronda cause she the champ. Why did she say only if she has to? Well that's cause that's the only way she can fight anyone under her contract with the ufc.

KOUNTRY 04-15-2015 07:44 PM

I think the bigger question is after a year or more now is why is Fallon not in the ufc? Is it safety? Is it that all the women in ufc say no? Or is she just not good enough yet?

FingerLakes 04-16-2015 10:02 AM

re: the poll
I would get the surgery provided my insurance paid for it and the implants afterwards like in this case

daemon 04-16-2015 06:25 PM

I really enjoyed this guest! Very funny!

https://internetactionforce.files.wo...fect-penis.gif

wiredjazz 04-17-2015 08:39 AM

The thinking on this whole MMA debate is wrong. There's no way to come together because both sides are skipping parts of the other's arguments. Keith is being practical about the physicality and Chemda thinks that he is being dismissive of gender issues. Chemda is being practical, but not about physicality - she is being practical about gender issues, at the sake of ignoring physicality. Because they do not come together - it's not a matter of deciding whether respect is more important than physicality in sport. It's a matter of compromising the two to create a safe space.

Keith isn't being insensitive to gender issues, but he seems like he is because he's addressing the argument of physicality, and in doing so, gives the practicality of sport precedence over the acceptance of gender diversity.

Chemda isn't being overly sentimental BECAUSE of Lauren, but she seems like she is, because she's disregarding major parts of male physiology to justify her point.


Here's the thing, gender aside - A male-bodied MMA fighter is going to wreak havoc on a female bodied MMA fighter. An MMA fighter who has undergone physical transition and is now physically (and mentally a woman) is not going to be equal to a male fighter, because the hormone therapy and the lack of testosterone will change the physicality. HOWEVER, it is not just testosterone which makes men naturally stronger than women. Testosterone helps, but it is not like hormones are the only things making a man physically stronger - as one person said, 'you can't under puberty'. So, in that sense, she is not going to be equal to a female-born MMA fighter. Puberty is testosterone fueled, but the physical growth of the body to that point will not be reversed by removing testosterone from the equation. Muscle mass on women is not just a limitation from the lack of testosterone.

Based on that, Keith is right. But I don't agree with him. Why? Because a female-bodied, female MMA fighter should be able to fight. Even if she was physically male before.

So do I agree with Chemda? No.

I can't agree with Chemda because Chemda thinks that current gender assignment is enough to allow this fighter to fight. But it's not. It is only ethically enough. But, after ethics are all over, it will still be physically unfair. So we have a really complicated clash, where equal treatment in gender issues clash with equal treatment in sports tournaments.

We want to live in this perfect world where respect is enough, but practicality WILL get in the way. The gendered nature of sports was created in a world where gender was seen as binary. While we need to respect the desire of this fighter to practise the sport, we also need to be aware of physical factors. In the end, no-one wins.

The truth is, the closest anyone came to a solution was Lauren, years ago. He said that what we need is a league for trans women and men. I hate the idea of segregating communal activities generally, but where a safe space doesn't exist for people (and I don't think that MMA is a safe space, if this debate is continuing), it is preferable to have a safe space.

We're SO bound up in trying to find the perfect solution to an incredibly flawed scenario, that we forget that we should be trying to CHANGE the scenario.

We are trying to change people's minds while leaving the heteronormative society intact. It's limited thinking.

Instead of arguing how to fit someone into a space which is heteronormative, we should be arguing how to create a safe space for those who fall out of the oppressive gender system.

marykae 04-17-2015 02:49 PM

I would have agreed that is a good solution but it feels so shitty. "Hey weirdos, over here." Additionally, as we head into the future and greater understanding of trans issues, we will have fewer and fewer trans women who had to go through male puberty as a male.

You're right, it is the closest we've come to a good solution if we ignore that many women are born with a female body AND a genetic advantage, as many have chosen to do in this thread. If those people are right, and I'm wrong, then this solution is best. . and it still sucks.

I don't envy trans women one bit, not even for potential strength advantages.

Life sucks sometimes, y'all.

The Girl 04-18-2015 07:19 AM

A lot of people are getting my side wrong.

Below is the copy/paste of an email I sent to someone who emailed saying that basically he thinks I'm siding with trans people because of heart and not facts.

This is not just sympathy.

I am still learning about what "transitioning" really is. How much does it affect a person. I don't know why you can be so confident in saying that someone can't fully transition physically into someone who can compete with the top-ranked women in her field. I'm asking because I don't have the authority to tell you either way. I just think it's weird that you can dismiss the option based on SOME facts.

Essentially, we are speaking through the same ignorance of guess work. Even doctors are learning new things.

I googled "do some races have heavier bone density?" and this was the first result: https://depts.washington.edu/bonebio/bonAbout/race.html

That doesn't mean it's 100% true BUT should we not let black women fight white women if it is? Or should we think about this a LITTLE?

Can we at least agree that it's so new that we should all take some time to think instead of going with what we think we know fully? Maybe ask a doctor? Maybe ask somemone who has transitioned?


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