2324: Normal People Suck

[Keith]

with Joanna Shaw Flamm – Lucas’s suicide update and a new letter; Alec Baldwin wanted Harvey Levin dead; Ronda Rousey’s suicidal thoughts and the airbrushed plus-size SI cover model; Anderson Cooper’s TV experiment; Martin Shkreli lost $15,000,000 trying to buy Kanye West’s new album; Rihanna partied too hard at the Grammy Awards; Bernie Sanders’ spoken word folk album; Ben Carson’s latest gaffe

Guest:
Joanna Shaw Flamm


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[Lanfear]

As CherryLavender wrote in the other show thread for me KATG is also a lot about the community and the great friends I made over the years.
I actually first heard about Lucas before I listened to the show as one of these friends heard it on the live-show and we talked about it. I was of course shocked but not really surprised and one of the first things that came to my mind was "I hope Chemda doesn't take that too hard"

I was initially a bit weirded out that Lucas pic and full name are in shownotes but todays show convinced me that it was the right decision. And as shitty as it must be for the other person to get that hand written letter I would hope hearing it discussed on KATG helped processing.

Yes mental illness is shitty, yes Lucas being so vengeful and lashing out at the end is most likely part of that illness but as Keith said that is just rude and fuck him for doing that.

[Sparrow]

can we talk about how amazing Joanna Shaw Flamm is? and how much i want to hang out with her?

[littlp]

Mental illness does not give anyone the right to be an asshole. I work with veterans who were in Vietnam and treated like shit by the government and US citizens when they returned; veterans who were POWs, veterans who had shit childhoods and saw horrible things. 99% of them are no where near assholes. What Lucas did was pure asshole. Pure narcissistic asshole. Keith is right.


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[GreeningOA]

I feel like these letters are gonna be like Cosby victims. Starts with one or two but there will be 50 of them before we know it.

[AstoriaGirl]

I'm really sorry Chemda had to go through this. It sucks to be preyed on for daring to have empathy (which is exactly what he was trying to target, from the sounds of the letters).

I need Keith to intercept my estranged parent's emails to me and give them the KATG treatment. He should open up a side business, a consultation company cutting through the bullshit of manipulative letters.

[Irobeth]

Re-linking this from the last time depression came up.

With Keith saying "I don't care what word it is" to describe his actions, I think after listening to both episodes that people are losing sight of what depression does to warp people's thoughts and beliefs.

More should be done (by all society) to improve the understanding of these kinds of illnesses. This disease can afflict anyone, any time, indiscriminately. We don't understand why, we don't understand how. We don't have fool-proof treatments. The symptoms are hard to attribute directly to depression when taken on a case-by-case basis. What makes sense to healthy people sounds impossible to those who suffer. It compromises motivation. It compromises reward. It compromises truth. It colors every thought. It corrupts your world-view.

Healthy people who haven't endured major depressive disorder simply can not understand the disease for what it is because we do not have a similarly compromised mind. It is natural to feel frustrated or attacked by their reactions, but it is important to view those who suffer so severely from depression as fighting (and in Lucas' case, losing) a war with their mind for their identity and their worldview.

People still confuse the individual symptom of 'sad' or 'hopeless' with the chronic 'major depressive disorder'. The common public is neither trained nor educated on how to interact effectively with victims of depression. Depression is contagious. It traumatizes those who are unfortunate (or caring) enough to try and shoulder the burden. It corrupts the image of those who suffer. The more you memorialize his meltdown, the dimmer any memories of the healthy Lucas fade and the more his final remembrance will be his suffering and how it spread to those around him.

I would ask you to consider: If he had contracted the flu and succumbed to the flu, and before his passing he coughed in Chemda's face, would you have an episode where you went on "fuck Lucas for giving Chemda the flu, he did it on purpose to hurt her"? Certainly his illness doesn't justify his behavior (indeed, we all know "to cover our mouths if we're sick"), but his suffering is an excuse or an explanation.

His recovery was his own responsibility, but it's nobody's fault for how he behaved just like it's nobody's fault when a sick person coughs. I understand that since this disease compromises the faculties one uses to create thoughts and carry out actions, it may appear he intentionally targeted the people he did out of malice. It may be the case, it might not be the case. He may have very well been convinced the people he sent letters to were the cause of his suffering. It's tragic he couldn't find the help or support he needed when he needed it. Even knowing what little I knew about Lucas, it is truly sorrowful he felt tormented enough to lash out like he did, and it is heartbreaking to know he suffered enough to end his own life.


I might not have interacted with him like you did, but (especially knowing Chemda's past) I'd ask you guys to see his letters not as a malicious attempt at poisoning you beyond his grave, but as the final, desperate, shrieks of agony of a person who's suffered so intensely and so long that he saw no living escape.

[AstoriaGirl]

I think that if someone sought me out to cough in my face, for the purpose of giving me a serious disease (which is a more apt comparison for the grief that can happen when one feels responsible for causing another to commit suicide), I would feel justified in ripping that person a new one, publicly. Accidentally sneezing near someone, getting some germs in their face isn't a comparison to "it is all your fault, you innocent, kind person, that my life is so awful. And I want my last act to be you feeling pain for as long as i can make it so"

[littlp]

We can't keep making excuses for people. Yes mental illness is serious. Yes the majority of people do not have the proper education on mental illness and yes there needs to be better quality and access to it. But we can't allow ourselves or others to blame all of their actions on mental illness. It is a cop out for being an asshole.

I say this as someone with major depression, likely Bipolar disorder Type 2 plus Type 1 diabetic. When I get cranky, it is not ok for me to snap at my husband: if I do I have to apologize and take steps to recognize when I might be feeling irrational. When my blood sugar gets low, I can't steal food/start shouting and hitting people.

It is called self awareness. I truly believe it is rare when someone is so mentally ill that they have absolutely no awareness. We are not doing anyone any good by allowing constant excuses for bad behavior.

Lucas letters to people is an asshole move. Plain and simple. I don't think this makes his entire life worthless/shit. He had his good moments. It is possible for someone to allow their mental illness to get to a certain point. I have to watch myself with my depression-it would be so much easier just to stay in bed all day everyday than to get up every morning and face the day.

We all have choices. Lucas chose to be an asshole, whether he truly believed what he was writing or not.


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[Irobeth]

@astoriagirl

Do you think the person who is ill and dies from the flu chose to die, chose to get sick, or chose to spread that illness to others? Again, I am not asking you to accept or pardon his actions as appropriate in any way. I am not asking you to dismiss how his actions affected Keith, Chemda, or the others he contacted. They happened how they happened, those people are undeniably affected by those actions.

I am asking you to distinguish between genuine malice/hatred and a disease that compromises your behaviors and actions. Lucas isn't here to be sober-minded again to explain his intent, we can never know why he did what he did. I am asking you to reserve the slightest benefit of the doubt for a person whose world was tormented enough he took his own life, that's all.


@littlp

When you snap at your husband, does he continue to resent you for it even if he understands why?

Do you believe you chose to hurt your husband intentionally? Do you believe it was your decision?

If you snapped at him and killed yourself afterward, how would you prefer him to remember you?

Would he chose to memorialize your final actions as 'an asshole move'?