2406: Thoughts No Prayers

[Keith]

I like the name Cherry...

[mkl]

Originally Posted by Lanfear

Mkl it just makes me mad that you don't even want to start thinking on the guns issue but argue that the big social problems that all of humanity has can be solved.

I'm fine thinking about guns and I think as a society we should have more discussions on possible solutions for just about everthing. You are arguing with your idea of me, not me. I have no sacred cows. Yes, I would prefer to look at root causes, and I see no evidence that a particular model of gun is the problem. You mention other countries that don't have the same level of violence, maybe it's because they have looked at some of the social problems I'm talking about? Germany and some european counties seem to have better social safetynets, focus on education and poverty reduction etc. Germany is still in the top 15 of countries of high gun ownership rates. Sweden is 9, Switzerland is 4, Norway, France, Canada all in the top 15. These countries all have firearms available at different degrees of availability, but have no where near the violence the USA has...and all seem to have more focus on the social aspects I've mentioned. Mexico has low levels of gun ownership, and high violence problems. There is more to this problem than availability of guns it seems.

I haven't seen data that supports that banning guns in america is going to solve our problems. There is a ton of studies that have been done, with a lot of variance in their outcomes. This is not an area where I have seen academic agreement. I have not seen a "silver bullet" that at this point any legislation that has been proposed would have a dramatic change in violence.
Gun violence and homicides in general have been on a downward trajectory for years now, even with the AWB being sunsetted, even with more guns than ever being sold. There is no clear "more guns = more murder" or "less guns = less murder" at least in this country, or we would see it in the fact that guns (specifically AR-15's and other rifles) are more popular than ever, with the overall crime (and homicide) rate being down at the lowest in decades. The murder rate in 2014 was the lowest it has been since 1969. I'ts still too high, but that doesn't fit with the thinking that the availability of guns is the problem to me.

I'm pragmatic, and want to do what WORKS. If you understand the politics of america, putting forward another AWB is going to spend YEARS of political capitial and money fighting for it, at the expensive of things that I feel are more important, and will these other things will reduce violence far more than an AWB. If it happens like the previous AWB, the legislative push itself will fuel even more gun purchases as people who ordinarily don't care about guns suddenly come out and buy more because they are going to be banned. It creates a further divide among people who I think could be brought closer together if we worked on issues that are solvable and not so hot button that will not lead to solutions.

[CherryLavender]

Originally Posted by Keith

I like the name Cherry...

It suits you.

[Lanfear]

Originally Posted by mkl

...

I'm pragmatic, and want to do what WORKS. If you understand the politics of america, putting forward another AWB is going to spend YEARS of political capitial and money fighting for it, at the expensive of things that I feel are more important, and will these other things will reduce violence far more than an AWB. If it happens like the previous AWB, the legislative push itself will fuel even more gun purchases as people who ordinarily don't care about guns suddenly come out and buy more because they are going to be banned. It creates a further divide among people who I think could be brought closer together if we worked on issues that are solvable and not so hot button that will not lead to solutions.

No you don't want what works you want guns.

Educating a whole generation of people will take you 20ish years, we had very strong social networks for 50+ years and we are still struggling with mental health & poverty; religion is hard to push out of people's heads and it's such a strong influence in your society and good luck with your economy.
How the fuck do you want to pay for all that? Lower your military spending aka buys less guns for the soldiers when you don't think you can get people to buy less guns for themselves?

You could pass better guns control laws in the next 4 years and the next weirdo will not be able to go to Walmart and shoot a room full of people 5 minutes later.
I'm not even trying to suggest you look into what Australia did with their gun laws.

And I have notes on your gun ownership wiki statistics but you seem like a clever guy so if you don't see them yourself I doubt I can convince you.

[lalalemon]

Thank you for helping me laugh when I feel like I can't.

[Lanfear]

But let's not fight and instead focus on the important stuff in life - judging people by their looks.

Case in point: Hairy Hockey Hunks:
Well Played, Jubilant Men In Beards: The Pittsburgh Penguins Win the Stanley Cup - Enough nattering. TO THE BEARDS, which we shall chronicle in order from feral to least-furry.

image.jpeg

[memecherry]

Originally Posted by Keith

I'll work on the guns, you work on the dancing.

I'll work on the dancing.. And spreading some joy...

I will also keep working hard to try to open any mind that is closed...

Even if it's just by the fact that when they look at me they think they see a straight white female, but then they hear my name and catch me kissing a girl AND liking it... suddenly a little latina who is fluid sexually isn't such a bad person to know...

[mkl]

Originally Posted by Lanfear

No you don't want what works you want guns.

You could pass better guns control laws in the next 4 years and the next weirdo will not be able to go to Walmart and shoot a room full of people 5 minutes later.

I'm not sure how you are judging what I want and what I don't. I appreciate what you are saying, and understand your perspective, I just disagree with what I think will work. I personally do not believe that passing any meaningful gun control is a possible reality in the current political climate of the USA, and won't be for the foreseeable future. If that is the only solution pursued we will not accomplish anything with results.

[Lanfear]

Originally Posted by mkl

I'm not sure how you are judging what I want and what I don't. I appreciate what you are saying, and understand your perspective, I just disagree with what I think will work. I personally do not believe that passing any meaningful gun control is a possible reality in the current political climate of the USA, and won't be for the foreseeable future. If that is the only solution pursued we will not accomplish anything with results.

Well instead of trying to tell me what won't work tell me what will?
What do you think will be able to be done on your other ideas?

[mkl]

Originally Posted by Lanfear

Well instead of trying to tell me what won't work tell me what will?
What do you think will be able to be done on your other ideas?

What I would like to see is additional debate around the areas I mentioned to bring some light on what could be done instead of banning guns being the start and end of the conversation. People seem to shut off as soon as someone opposes them from both sides, just look at this thread in places...and this has been super reasonable compared to most gun discussions on the internet.

I think a good start would be to eliminate the war on drugs. From what I understand, a good percentage of gun crime and violence revolves around gangs and areas related to the illegal sale and distribution of drugs. The jailing of individuals also perpetuates an environment where children grow up without fathers/mothers due to incarceration. I'd like to see more research into this, to see if it would be an improvement or not.

Showing people they have options outside of poverty by the means of education, like scholarships or free college for at risk youths appears to have some traction. There has been some good research into this area showing promise. Maybe a proposed Guaranteed Minimum Income for everyone in America would lift people out of poverty, although this idea seems to have little political traction, so it might be just as difficult as gun control to get passed. Even programs that seem pretty out there like paying kids not be involved in crime/gangs are worth looking into: Did This City Bring Down Its Murder Rate by Paying People Not to Kill? | Mother Jones

Funding for public elementary/middle/high schools in Urban areas with high gun violence seems lacking as well. We have trillions for wars, billions will be spent just running for president this election cycle - and the budget for school are being cut. If, as I have understand, higher levels of education have a negative correlation with violent crime, we should be investing way more in this area.

There have been a lot of individual studies and programs I have heard/read about that have great success in preventing violence in small areas. Taking any of those programs and giving them the level of funding to see what works would be great.

I'm sure there are dozens of other ideas if people got together and started looking at what the root causes are of people who ended up murders and seeing what could be done to change that.

Again, the highest group of firearm deaths are due to suicide, 70% of deaths from firearms- so any additional counseling or support that could move that needle would have great impacts.