2424: Chemda in the Sky with Diamonds

[dannyhatch]

with Christian Finnegan – Black Lives Matter and cop-killing; 6 women accuse Fox News CEO Roger Ailes of sexual harassment; Keith reviews the Bob Dylan concert; Chemda reviews acid; WBLS’s Quiet Storm host Vaughn Harper dies

Guest:
Christian Finnegan



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[MichaelApproved]

I do think protests are important. My issue is with the absence of a goal. What's the point in protesting, if there is no clear goal? What are people getting behind?

Stop unjustly killing people? Duh, of course, but how will you achieve that goal? Christian's idea of the "Body camera protest rally" is a great example of a protest with clear goals. It's clear to people watching what the group wants.

Chant the names of local city council politicians. If they don't enact body camera laws, those people will hopefully remember to vote them out.

[invader]

Michael is again thinking like a programmer. We first have to quantify the BLM into tangible goals. Then take on each goal one by one, we only move on to the next goal once the previous one is achieved. It's wholly more efficient and it ensures that there isn't confusion on where anyone stands. For example Michael, Chemda and Christian are all on the same side and want the same overall goal but in this show alone there were two separate arguments between the three of logistics of how it all should be achieved. We are spending too much time spinning our wheels and infighting. Also voting is the most efficient way and still the process is going to take generations to fix.

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by invader

Michael is again thinking like a programmer. We first have to quantify the BLM into tangible goals. Then take on each goal one by one, we only move on to the next goal once the previous one is achieved. It's wholly more efficient and it ensures that there isn't confusion on where anyone stands. For example Michael, Chemda and Christian are all on the same side and want the same overall goal but in this show alone there were two separate arguments between the three of logistics of how it all should be achieved. We are spending too much time spinning our wheels and infighting. Also voting is the most efficient way and still the process is going to take generations to fix.

Well put.

Also, I'd like to be more involved but I don't want to support Black Lives Matter. I don't like their organizational structure, their political views, their protest style or their ultimate goal (which seems to be to take down the entire American system).

Is there another organization that's pushing for social justice? The only other group I could think of is https://www.aclu.org/ They don't get headlines like BLM does but they get results and their style matches what I've been advocating (fight in the courts and at the ballot).

[invader]

You can't educate someone by yelling sense into them. Whether we like it or not the killings in Dallas has and will have a negative impact on the BLM movement. Should it? of course not. But it will. If we want to educate people on the plight of blacks in America we have to again quantify what the issues are and tackle them one by one. It's the same reason gun control goes no where in America. Too many people who know too little about guns are weighing in so when a gun enthusiast hears someone mixing up magazines and clips, semi-auto and fully auto and what is legal or illegal as far as background checks, the pro-gun owner just thinks "this person has no idea what they are talking about." and just shuts down. The conversation never gets off the ground.

It's easy to say; "fuck that person, they should educate themselves." But how is someone suppose to educate themselves on a topic if they don't know they are ignorant to the topic? Even if they make it past that hurdle how are they then going to find information when there are so many conflicting views on the same side.

Organization and a clear goal is the key. It was the key to ending segregation, slavery, giving women the right to vote and a whole host of other things. BLM movement lacks that organization and clarity. So did the occupy movement which has also gone nowhere.

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by invader

You can't educate someone by yelling sense into them. Whether we like it or not the killings in Dallas has and will have a negative impact on the BLM movement. Should it? of course not. But it will. If we want to educate people on the plight of blacks in America we have to again quantify what the issues are and tackle them one by one. It's the same reason gun control goes no where in America. Too many people who know too little about guns are weighing in so when a gun enthusiast hears someone mixing up magazines and clips, semi-auto and fully auto and what is legal or illegal as far as background checks, the pro-gun owner just thinks "this person has no idea what they are talking about." and just shuts down. The conversation never gets off the ground.

Spot on. I put the part I agree with most in bold.

Originally Posted by invader

It's easy to say; "fuck that person, they should educate themselves." But how is someone suppose to educate themselves on a topic if they don't know they are ignorant to the topic? Even if they make it past that hurdle how are they then going to find information when there are so many conflicting views on the same side.

A single focused goal can help cut though a lot of that. Take a look at these people blocking a major street in Los Angeles tonight. They're chanting "Hey hey, ho ho, these racists cops have got to go"

Which racist cops? Brian? David? Tammy?

No clarity with these protesters. That's my gripe. All this is feel good masturbation. I'm sure the protesters go home feeling like they did something but I doubt much will change from this.

https://twitter.com/BLMLA/status/752367192063275012

Originally Posted by invader

Organization and a clear goal is the key. It was the key to ending segregation, slavery, giving women the right to vote and a whole host of other things. BLM movement lacks that organization and clarity. So did the occupy movement which has also gone nowhere.

Selma to Montgomery marches that MLK lead had crystal clear goals: voting rights for blacks. There is nothing clear here. There is nothing organized here. Just people being angry without direction.

I'm sure I sound like an asshole naysayer for speaking like this. Of course, I want to end police abuse/murder. Of course, I want accountability. This just doesn't feel like it's getting any of that done.

Without specific legislation, without specific leaders to elect, without focus, little will get done.

[MichaelApproved]

Here we go again. Shutting down a major highway to get attention for your cause by pissing off the people you want on your side https://twitter.com/BLMLA/status/752...943488?lang=en

[Mermaid]

Another negro:

You've conflated the organization called "Black Lives Matter" with the #BlackLivesMatter movement.

The Black Lives Matter organization is independent of the movement, though they obviously have the same goals.

So I'm also guessing you went to the wrong website...cause there is a lengthy list of goals on the website started by "leaders" of the #BlackLivesMatter movement.

Solutions ? Campaign Zero

There ya go.

BTW your entire stance comes off as very condescending. Especially for someone who seems to not actually know whats going on and the many small changes that have happened in law enforcement departments across the country, even since the beginning of the #BlackLivesMatter movement a few years ago.

Also, you should think about how everyone in a movement has their part. Some people's part is to simply agitate and get attention. That's how the public learns there is a problem. You can claim people already knew police brutality was bad but I can assure you most of middle America did not.

There are other people like Marilyn J. Mosby, the state's attorney for Baltimore and Attorney General Loretta Lynch who are on the judicial side of things. You haven't noticed that the Department of Justice has been getting involved a lot more often lately? You don't think its because 1) Barack Obama appointed a black Attorney General [you didn't think it was a coincidence did you? lol] 2)Protesters have brought an issue that has always been there to the forefront and now she can investigate the injustices with people on both sides behind her trying to prove a point

That's just too parts of a movement. There are many more. It only seems like nothing is happening because it is happening one bit at a time.

[MichaelApproved]

Before you read, please know that nothing is said with sarcasm. All my questions are genuine.

Originally Posted by Mermaid

Another negro:

You've conflated the organization called "Black Lives Matter" with the #BlackLivesMatter movement.

The Black Lives Matter organization is independent of the movement, though they obviously have the same goals.

This is the first I'm hearing about the difference, so please help me understand this better.

What are tangible differences between the two, if the goals are the same?

Are there differences in how they believe the goals should be achieved?

Originally Posted by Mermaid

So I'm also guessing you went to the wrong website...cause there is a lengthy list of goals on the website started by "leaders" of the #BlackLivesMatter movement.

Solutions ? Campaign Zero

There ya go.

I went to this website http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/ which had broad strokes about belief and nothing specific. The page you linked to is a lot clearer, in terms of goals and tactics. That's what I was looking for, thanks! I'll take time to read it in more detail.

What type of events does Campaign Zero have, if any? Do their supporters rally under the CZ banner or is it only meant as a list of policy solutions that people should advocate for?

Originally Posted by Mermaid

BTW your entire stance comes off as very condescending. Especially for someone who seems to not actually know whats going on and the many small changes that have happened in law enforcement departments across the country, even since the beginning of the #BlackLivesMatter movement a few years ago.

My stance on the protests is deeply cynical. That can come off as condescending but it's not meant to be.

Originally Posted by Mermaid

Also, you should think about how everyone in a movement has their part. Some people's part is to simply agitate and get attention. That's how the public learns there is a problem. You can claim people already knew police brutality was bad but I can assure you most of middle America did not.

There are other people like Marilyn J. Mosby, the state's attorney for Baltimore and Attorney General Loretta Lynch who are on the judicial side of things. You haven't noticed that the Department of Justice has been getting involved a lot more often lately? You don't think its because 1) Barack Obama appointed a black Attorney General [you didn't think it was a coincidence did you? lol] 2)Protesters have brought an issue that has always been there to the forefront and now she can investigate the injustices with people on both sides behind her trying to prove a point

That's just too parts of a movement. There are many more. It only seems like nothing is happening because it is happening one bit at a time.

I've mentioned in the past that successful movements have had political and militant (agitator) wings. I get that and it's not my issue. I don't have a problem with protesting. Protesting is essential. My problem is with the disorganization of the protests such as the 405 freeway closing that are counterproductive. Take the protest to those in power.

People are in the streets asking to stop racists cops. How do you stop them? Without advocating for specific policy, how do the protesters know who/what to vote for?

Yes the DoJ is more involved but my cynical view is they are involved with high profile cases and then nothing gets done on a day to day bases. We'll get lip-service from politicians but that's pretty much it.

My view is that shutting down freeways is counterproductive and nothing permanent will happen without voting. We need a national bill that we can rally behind, similar to the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

[Eric M]

Chemda I love you to death but the reality of this world is that you need to come up with a better argument than "no that's different." There are conservatives in this world who think differently than we do.

If you just wanna make jokes and have a fun show, that's wonderful. It's what you two are the absolute best at. But if you want to enter into an honest debate, I think it would behoove you to inform yourself a little more so you can stop leaning on the 2-3 key phrases and arguments you have in your head and just expect that people should agree with them.

This is in no way meant to be condescending. I agree with you 95% of the time but to make an argument you need to learn how to get through to these conservatives because they have some very thick skulls.