2692: Who Watches the Watchmen?

[Sparrow]

you hear that, America? we have to prove we're better than WWII era Nazi sympathizers.

remember the nuns in the Sound of Music who sabotaged the car of the Third Reich dudes at the end? do we have as much balls as a bunch of singing nuns or are we a bunch of weak ass Rolfs?

[Lanfear]

Originally Posted by kaligula

Nice :-D. And you're not wrong. Seeing a valid contextualisation being shut down with emotive trump cards does push my buttons.



Right. And you also posted a story about German citizens beating up the drunk asshole along with an anti-Nazi poster in German. Because you wanted to show that the problem exists, and that good people are fighting against it.

A more apt comparison would be if someone were to conflate Germans with Nazis and you got all "Not all Germans."

You know, like this time.
Or that other time.

Did you just do a search on Nazi and my forums name and just link that without looking at it?

Because the 2009 post you linked says

We are definitely not ignoring the Nazi topic in Germany at all its a topic in school in history class a lot, usually also in sociology and in German/literature classes so everybody is very much aware of it.

What is true is that its illegal to show/sell/distribute certain nazi symbols, books and phrases.

How that is me going "Not all Germans"?

And the second example is Keith implying I'm a Nazi because the way waiters here split checks in restaurants and me refering to Goodwins law

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1."

And I again I'm not quite sure how that is at all related to me saying "Not all Germans"

To be honest I probably have said that at some point and if I did I hope that somebody pointed out that that is a stupid move like I did to Flerchin and I hope I reacted as graceful and reconsidered my wording like he did.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by kaligula

.

I believe that then and now, it would have been better to unite in opposition to Nazism than to fall divided.

Willing to be corrected. Got to run.

that feels accurate. i don't think we're on totally separate pages here, it's just living in and coming from a hot bed of confederate flags and militia fetishists, i feel a heavy close burden to do what i can from the inside to create some kind of lasting change for my people.

these are insular communities. isolationists. they have bunkers dug already to fall back into if push comes to shove. this is not an exaggeration. there are 100% bunkers and stockpiles hidden in the hills.

i see the smoke. what do we do now?

[Lanfear]

Originally Posted by kaligula

First one not a great example. You're right. Just trying to illustrate a totally legitimate attempt to distance yourself from something not representative. Second one more analogous.

What would be wrong with your saying "Not all Germans" to an enquiry about modern neo-Nazism that implied otherwise? For a start, it's the truth. Any position that suppresses the truth is suspect.

We have anti-Nazis in Europe and anti-Nazis in America. We also have terrifying neo-Nazi movements on both continents. They should be marginalised.

Stand up and shout that not all, or even most Americans and Europeans - liberals or conservative - support them. El Trumpo himself was recently forced to weakly denounce racist groups through gritted teeth because he knows he'll lose more followers if he doesn't. It worked.

That second example is not analogous at all in my opinion as well but hey if you want to grasp at straws suit yourself.

Concerning your last point: It didn't work - Trump walked that forced statement right back yesterday and actually made it worse somehow.

The big underlying problem with all the "Not all ..." versions is that it is allowing everybody to pretend everything is fine and not examine your own bias and your social circles bias and belittles the victims experience. People that are much cleverer than me have written about that extensively.

And to respond to your attempt at a history lesson a few posts back:
- what happened after WWI to Germany was a combination of massive economic sanctions that made peoples life difficult AND denial of guilt or education about what actually happened and who's fault it was.

- Compare that to what happened after WWII with the Marshall plan (Thanks America!) and how much effort is being put on continuing education and emphasis on just how fucking many people were if not directly helping then at least not resisting the Nazis.

So which of these approaches got a better result you think?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by kaligula

It must be terrifying to be around it all the time. Your safety is paramount.

it's actually incredibly comfortable. i'm a white, married, land owning woman whose family's been on the same dirt for nigh on a century. these crazies love me and if they don't they have to respect me. i walk and speak quite freely. this shit is not "other" for me. it's tradition. i can drop some seriously liberal shit and get away with it b/c i remind them of their daughters. i feel like i have a powerful agency to say some shit they might actually, if not accidentally, hear.

i've put on my turquoise cowboy boots and walked very pleasantly through a couple of confederate rallies in the last couple years to get up close deep listening to what's going on behind closed doors as it were. i got a tour of the cab of a semi-truck that showed up with confederate flag everything from the guy's daughter, she couldn't have been more than 12. i used that opportunity to talk to her about what she thinks was going on and about what our heritage was actually about. i think those moments matter. and it was the best 'fuck you' to that guy i could think of. it was quiet. and personal.

[Keith]

And? What'd she say?

[Keith]

As per. And the root. Subjugate.

[flerchin]

Keith, you're being goofy.

I've really enjoyed this thread, and been enlightened by it.

[Sparrow]

it was a lot of parroted sound bytes i imagine she hears from the living room, but it was very innocent. there wasn't any malice in it and i'm sure she didn't really get what a rally happening meant. it's just hanging out with her friends.

[Lanfear]

Originally Posted by kaligula

Will respond to meaningful disagreement later, Lanfear. Just wanted to add that I in no way meant to give you a history lesson. Just getting on the same page. I think we have significant agreement on goals an strategies. I simply disagree with minimising flerchin's (for example) lived experiences. We are all many faceted humans.

Hey Flerchin now that we are buddies ;-)
Did I minimize your lived experiences? (not kidding actually asking)