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Old 08-17-2017, 03:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Daniel is the best with both of them.
His energy is similar to Keith's.
I love him on the show.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Regarding the Google Document:

I will admit upfront that I have not read it, although I've seen some news reports about it. It seems like a lot of news reports go all-in on telling the story that the guy is a nasty misogynist. I haven't read the right-wing version of the story (mostly because I don't trust the right-wing news - because I see them as spin-doctors and cavemen). But, it seems like some news sources, quote the document and it sounds like the guy is actually quite mild in what it says.

I don't really trust Keith's summary of the situation - and I'm guessing that he's only heard the left-wing news version of events, so I don't begrudge him for making a poor summary of the document.

For example, here's Philip DeFranco's summary of the situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xczeLAUkOE

I've also read elsewhere that scientists in the field say that his claims in the paper pretty much mirror the scientific community's current position on gender differences. The Google Memo: Four Scientists Respond - Quillette

Example: Debra W Soh (Debra W Soh is a Toronto based science writer who has a PhD in sexual neuroscience from the University of York.) She says: "As a woman who’s worked in academia and within STEM, I didn’t find the memo offensive or sexist in the least. I found it to be a well thought out document, asking for greater tolerance for differences in opinion, and treating people as individuals instead of based on group membership. Within the field of neuroscience, sex differences between women and men—when it comes to brain structure and function and associated differences in personality and occupational preferences—are understood to be true, because the evidence for them (thousands of studies) is strong. This is not information that’s considered controversial or up for debate; if you tried to argue otherwise, or for purely social influences, you’d be laughed at...."

From that point of view, I can't help but think that the left is trying to blow this up into a story because: controversy sells and because there are people on the left who hold very strong beliefs on this subject, and even though those people disagree with scientists in the field, they are trying to push their beliefs onto society for political reasons. Basically, they get triggered and accuse people of things of things they didn't do. (By the way, I was recently listening to the Risk podcast, and the host - a very progressive gay man - mentioned that he has listeners who write him and tell him that he's a bigot and racist and call him all kinds of names that he clearly doesn't deserve, because they got triggered by something he said or did or some story he had on his podcast. Those people are out there.)

> 2. When he explains why women aren't suited for software engineering because they are social, software engineering is a group process. You have thousands of engineers working together in the same codebase. You need to communicate and work together. It isn't lone rangers.

By in large, software developers are working alone most of the time. Whenever people talk about how software development involves a lot of talking, I always kind of laugh and wonder if people making that claim have ever written software. I write software. I spend 90% of my time working alone. This has been consistent throughout my career. That isn't to say that I don't work in a team. I do. But, conversations with the team are a small fraction of the time that I actually spend at work. Why do you think software developers have a reputation for being socially awkward? It's because developers are spending most of their working hours working on problems by themselves.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I will admit upfront that I have not read it...

I don't really trust Keith's summary of the situation - and I'm guessing that he's only heard the left-wing news version of events, so I don't begrudge him for making a poor summary of the document.
This fuckin' guy...
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:13 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Even if you say more men are interested in STEM, it doesn't mean that those women who are at google don't deserve to be thee.
They are the minority.
Why make their live harder? I'm sure they were not hired without having to show any proof for their education.
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Last edited by Apia; 08-18-2017 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:22 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It's not like google would hire " all the women"
Women who have the right education and are interested in tech are applying.
Why should anyone who isn't interested in tech apply for a job in tech?
And how would this person even finish school? Or want to?

There is already a selection with the people who apply.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:30 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I'm a sales representative.
Or team is pretty mixed gender wise.
We have 8 men and 5 women.

All the men in my team are great communicators. They are extremly social and easy to talk to. One could say, they are like women in this area.

But no. They are men with great communication skills. They were interested in this job because of their skills.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:22 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBrit View Post
Regarding the Google Document:

I will admit upfront that I have not read it, ...
Maybe before you write this much about something read it. Have an opinion of your own then check it with other sources. instead of looking for sources that support your view.

How about, no one asked this guy for this information.
How about, he sends it out as if it's fact.
How about, he doesn't list scientific research that could be duplicated and proven right or wrong. You know the way Science works.
How about, what do you think his intentions were putting this memo out, was he trying to prove a point, make a joke or maybe intimidate the female employees around him.
How about, this is way outside his job and it doesn't belong in a work memo, you know unless he is a science researcher or scientist.
How about, Google did the right thing and fired the fucker.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:32 AM   #18 (permalink)
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A bunch of bullshit.
Wrong. I believe that you write software and are socially awkward. Stick to that.
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Old 08-18-2017, 12:22 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MrBrit View Post
> 2. When he explains why women aren't suited for software engineering because they are social, software engineering is a group process. You have thousands of engineers working together in the same codebase. You need to communicate and work together. It isn't lone rangers.

By in large, software developers are working alone most of the time. Whenever people talk about how software development involves a lot of talking, I always kind of laugh and wonder if people making that claim have ever written software. I write software. I spend 90% of my time working alone. This has been consistent throughout my career. That isn't to say that I don't work in a team. I do. But, conversations with the team are a small fraction of the time that I actually spend at work. Why do you think software developers have a reputation for being socially awkward? It's because developers are spending most of their working hours working on problems by themselves.
I work as a software engineer in the Bay Area. The more senior one is, the less actual coding one does. I allocate less than 15 hours a week to writing code.

Last edited by seamus; 08-18-2017 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
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This fuckin' guy...
And I bet you didn't either. Glass houses.

I haven't heard any summary of the Google Document which resembled Keith's version of events on the podcast.

> Apia

You rebutted arguments I didn't make.

> flerchin:
> Wrong. I believe that you write software and are socially awkward. Stick to that.

No, I am not socially awkward, but it's terribly common in the industry. Thanks for the ad-hominem, though.

> instead of looking for sources that support your view.

I didn't "look for sources that supported my view." I am referencing news reports that I stumbled on without looking for it.

Based on the responses, I don't see any reason to think that this isn't just a witchhunt. I see a lot of people who haven't read the paper telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I haven't seen any quotes from the paper that actually show him saying anything terribly offensive, but I see lots of people making assumptions about what he's saying.

By the way, here's a quote from Kevin Allison, a liberal gay man, talking about accusations he gets thrown at him from the far left (who are likely many of the same people attacking the guy at google): After a long complaint about Trump and the Right-wing, he says, "At Risk, we get a lot of heat from people on the Left yelling about the curation of the show and yelling about the storytellers. People from the Social Justice Warrior wing have called me a racist, a bully, a rape enabler. An accessory to murder. These people are lashing out. Their tweet, their emails, their comments on the message boards." - Risk Podcast, Episode "Out of Bounds" #844 (10:00-12:00). If a very liberal gay podcaster like Kevin Allison gets that much hate from the Left, you know that nobody is going to please them. And I think a lot of these same people are attacking the Google guy, and writing articles to vilify him.

If you don't think there aren't people who aren't incentivized to make this into a controversy, you don't know the news business. If you don't think there are social justice warriors who aren't out to vilify the guy, then you don't know about the social justice movement.
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