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Old 11-05-2017, 01:55 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Responding To Ray

Ray,
There are a lot of things to address in this post and I will do my best to respond to everything you have to say.

Starting with the issue of this “catching you by surprise”. Because of the current climate (Weinstein, Cosby, Tobar… the list never ends) we have been having a lot of discussions on KATG about sexual politics, power plays, and of course sexual assault in the entertainment industry. We are all continuing to try and learn where the lines are and truly understanding consent. Within the last year I have been looking back at a lot of my sexual experiences that made me feel uncomfortable and badly afterwards and I finally have the clarity and language to be able to unpack what happened. These experiences are even trickier and more nuanced because I was drinking during a lot of them. As I said on the show, from a legal standing point being intoxicated makes you a less reliable witness to events like these. There is also the commonly held belief that women with drinking problems or women who are promiscuous "deserve what happens to them". The (incorrect) argument is that they put themselves in dangerous situations and so they somehow should not be upset when somebody takes advantage of them. I used to believe this about myself. On one of my early shows (What's Up, A) I discussed an incident where I blacked out, my sexual partner had sex with me without a condom, hit me to the point that I was bruised all over my body, took pictures in my room and then left. I used to blame myself for that incident. And maintain that I shouldn't be having sex when I was that drunk. I now know that's not true. I've passed out drunk around many male friends and boyfriends. The only ones who have raped me are rapists. The point of me saying this is: the incident with you falls into that category in a sense that I only now understand how I feel about it and am able to talk about it with clarity. It's something that happened many years ago. I felt bad about it and buried it because I didn't feel confident in addressing it. I also had to see you fairly often in the comedy community and also the Keith and The Girls community. You were an older and a much more established comedian than me. To be honest, if I were to go around confronting all the men who have made me feel uncomfortable in one way or another or pushed a sexual encounter to a place I didn't want it to go. It would be painful and uncomfortable for me in a way that I don't want to deal with. There are also things that "aren't worth it" for women. This may seem strange to you as a man but you don't live our experience so I can't expect you to understand it. I work in a male-dominated industry. I get hit on or harassed in some way shape or form on an almost daily basis. It’s exhausting and for my own sanity I can’t spend all my time fighting it. It’s an uphill battle. Also, I am trying to build my career as an entertainer. Unfortunately for women, speaking up about things like this damage our careers. We are isolated. We are called sluts. We are called liars and ultimately we lose out more than the men who victimize us.

Now to address the naked pictures of me you showed to people. A lot of what you are saying about this incident is incorrect. Here is what actually happened. The night I cancelled on your birthday. I had to work so you invited a bunch of KATG people to hang out. You were talking shit about me to everybody because I cancelled on you. You’re an adult man, grow up. Then you showed several people the naked pictures. I don’t care if I was wearing underwear, don’t make it seem like that is somehow better. Another thing you have said in defence of this is “knowing Andrea, there are probably a bunch more pictures like this floating around”. You’re a pig. It doesn’t matter if I send naked pictures to a bunch of guys. It doesn’t matter if I send stock ones to different guys. You are calling me a slut to deflect from the fact that you took something that I gave to you, trusting you would respect me, and showed it to my friends and old boss.

You were not the one who told me you did that. A friend of mine who was at the gathering told me. He texted me saying something along the lines of “Ray is showing guys your picture”. I didn’t out him because I wanted to protect him from getting in trouble for being a “snitch” of sorts. He told me that one of the people you showed the pictures to was Keith. I remember being very embarrassed and upset about it. Firstly because you were showing people pictures of my body that you had no right to, but beyond that you were showing them to my friends and a mentor who I had interned for and have a professional relationship with. Frankly, I don’t give a shit if you were “bragging”. Your defence of your actions is flimsy at best. I confronted you about the pictures thing and you joked it off. You said it yourself Ray, “it was my best tweet, I say, ladies when we show our friends your naked pictures we are bragging, it’s like when you show off flowers you got from your boyfriend to your co-workers at work”. It’s very telling that you have this view on it. It’s indicative of somebody who views women as sex objects. Hey look at this sweet piece of ass I am hooking up with. I know a lot of men are like this, it’s just an extension of the “locker room talk” horeshit that you all perpetuate. I am not saying that men can’t compliment women on their looks or vice versa. That is one thing. Another thing is to show my body to your friends like its some prize that you earned. That is incredibly misogynistic, and that you use that as a defense for your actions without even considering how bad it makes you look really shed a light on how ignorant you are about these things.

I was incredibly vocal about this. I even brought it up onstage at one of Keith’s stand-up athons at the Village Underground. Calling you an asshole for doing that. You joked it off then and you have ever since. You have never truly and sincerely apologized to me for this. This narrative you are creating that you learned some big lesson when you saw the hurt you caused is complete bullshit. You never “owned your mistake”. And you are shocked I didn’t take the time to have a heart to heart chat with you about the other incident? This narrative that you are “just a good guy that goofs up a lot” is a cop-out. You barely take ownership of anything in your life and you expect me to speak to you like an adult? Please.

I can’t comment on the things you said about your alcoholism and your inability to perform sexually while drunk. We have only ever hooked up while drinking so I never got this “girlfriend treatment” that you are referring to. To address what you said about the beginning of the evening. I didn’t just want a place to crash, I did want to hang out with you and eventually hook up. We met at the bar near your place and went home together at the end of the night. When we got to your apartment and into your room I remember a distinct switch in my mood. Things weren’t really “clicking” between us sexually, like I said and you re-iterated, we were both drunk and it wasn’t going well. From what I remember I expressed that I wasn’t really feeling it and wanted to just sleep. You met me with resistance, saying something like “c’mon, you can’t come over to my place like this and not hook up”. This is what I remember. I also remember that I barely had any money left in my bank account that day and getting a cab from Queens to Brooklyn was going to be too expensive for me. I remember just thinking, OK, just meet in the middle and this will be over with. As I said, I am not accusing you of raping me. I am saying that we had a drunken encounter where you pushed me to hook up more than I wanted and I decided to go with it. I felt pressured and weird about the whole thing. I tried to just move past it. You say you have a different memory of that night. You say you aren’t calling me a liar. So this is now reduced to a “he said she said” situation and I really don’t think there is any way to move forward with it. You have given your side of things. I maintain my side. This whole thing has been very uncomfortable for me and I want to move past it.

I will say, it bothers me that you say things like “I have hung out with her mom and brother” and “plenty of female comics have hung out at my place and crashed there”. These are distractions from the main issue at hand. I took my mom to a comedy show that you host because I wanted to see a comedy show with my mom. I still had uncomfortable feeling about you but I was trying to move past it. It doesn’t somehow make you a great guy because I will take my mom to watch your show. Similarly with my brother, he has come to KATG events, I go to those events with him because it’s something we like to do together. Why would I then drag into my sibling hang time a conversation about my sexual relations with you and how it got weird? The argument “why would she hang out with me if she felt this way” is ignorant and it simplifies things. All the women in the community tolerate the presence of creeps and try to play nice in ways that it makes their lives easier. It is just the world we live in. It doesn’t make us liars it’s a survival tactic. Every time I see you, you are drunk and often say something along the lines of “we used to be friends Andrea, we never hang out”. I try to make a joke of it, deflect and get away from you. You booked me on a show a few weeks ago. I tried to be pleasant, thankful for the spot and continue living my life. I don’t have a vendetta against you or aim to ruin your career. I’ve just felt uncomfortable around you for a while and I’ve chosen to deal with it by keeping quiet. As we are seeing now, most women keep quiet about these things because not doing so is overwhelmingly painful and fucks up their lives.

You’ve texted me and Facebook messaged me multiple times and this is the first time I have responded. I have been trying to get space from this because all of it went down in the place that I work. It is my hope that you will read this. Try to understand and empathize with me. Please don't respond to me and if we run into one anothee in public please don't engage with me. We aren't friends and we haven't been for a long time. You have said your side of things, I have said mine. I’m exhausted.
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Old 11-05-2017, 02:34 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I posted what i did yesterday, and then read it 50x’s, and it makes me sick. I’m an alcoholic, I’m a drunk? Those aren’t excuses, that’s pathetic. Truth is, I was wasted, I have no idea what I said that night. If Andrea said that I said it, then I said it, I believe her, and I’m sorry. What I posted yesterday, is what I pretty much thought happened, I like how sober Ray, conveniently takes all accountability of drunk Ray out of the equation, I’m an asshole. This isn’t acceptable.

It is one thing to get wasted to the point that I’m self inducing seizures, it’s another thing to get wasted and treat other people horribly and then on top of it, not only not care about there feelings when they bring up my behavior after the fact, but accuse them of overreacting.

I was driving to a show in PA yesterday, on the way I was reflecting, there have been other scenarios where I’ve done horrible things and then dismissed blame when it was brought to my attention, one such scenario almost cost a club in Colorado there liquor license.

I owe apologies to a lot of people. One thing I said yesterday, that I still is still true, is that I’m glad Andrea called me out, again sorry she was involved in this, but if she doesn’t say anything, I’m still in the dumb stupor of dismissing my accountability.

Today is my birthday, I’m going to spend it at St. Monica’s church on 79th street. It’ll be my first AA meetings in years. I’ve tried getting sober before, and I’ve half-assed it, I apologize to everyone, I don’t expect any sympathy, I reacted like a selfish asshole, and I’m a piece of shit. It’s one thing to sit here and type how I’m going to get sober, it’s another thing to actually do it. If I’m not on here on December 5th announcing I’m one month sober, then this apology is empty.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:32 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I can't really comment because this is between two people. Neither of which I know. So I'll just say something that affects us all.

We all need to respect the naked selfie pic. It's an awesome thing. An extension of modern day sexuality. It's sexy. I think it helps in pre-gaming your sex when you first meet. It opens dialogue. It's just a new relationship enhancement and it's fun.

I'm amazed at how many times a woman has told me, "I totally would but I've had guys share my pics."

This is why I hate dudes who don't respect what they are given. When you are irresponsible and/ or vindictive with something that private, you fuck it up for the rest of us. Don't show anyone. This includes your best friend. You never know if the person is a one-night fling, a 3 month thing, or whatever. Maybe ya get married - who knows.

I also think deleting pics once a relationship is finished is wise. This prevents bad decisions and keeps those pics from falling into wrong hands.

Don't be a dick. Respect the pic.

It's cheesy. But true!
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:45 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Cliche

A cliche is a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought. One example might be, "That persons so oblivious. They don't even realize they're doing a rehab-cliche, a la Weinstein.

There's a lot of cliche when getting busted nowadays.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:54 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apia View Post
Good thing Mr. Apia is an introvert and doesn't communicate with other people much.
Has Mr Apia considered listening to KATG? Possibly getting onto forums?! POSSIBLY GETTING CORRUPTED by us degenerates?

He will be corrupted. But. His communication will be improved. So...yeah lol
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:52 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I no longer share naked pictures because I no longer trust men not to share them.

It was fun while it lasted. Til to ripe old age of 19.

I've even gotten to the point where I don't want to send regular pictures of myself to guys I'm dating. Because I've seen so many guys have a freaking catalog of their "conquests" on their phone.

Now I just point everyone to my social media pictures and if you think I'm a catfish then we can go on a date to prove I'm not.
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:12 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm surprised nobody wondered if Louis CK did this movie so he could be the dad, the voice of reason, the one saying "This is pretty missed up." Then if the general public ever learns about the allegations against Louis, they're likely to dismiss it as, "No, Louis is against these kinds of things; I saw it in a movie."
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Old 11-06-2017, 10:35 AM   #28 (permalink)
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True. Keith is pretty evolved and better than most...
<sigh>now are you just trying to get quoted by Keet on the show or do you just like seeing Chemda's eyes roll? Will we hear the end of this!
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:34 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Ray,
To be honest, if I were to go around confronting all the men who have made me feel uncomfortable in one way or another or pushed a sexual encounter to a place I didn't want it to go. It would be painful and uncomfortable for me in a way that I don't want to deal with. There are also things that "aren't worth it" for women.
This quote means a lot to me. When we speak out we get blamed, our assaults are denied, attacked, insulted, demeaned. Sometimes even sued for slander. All this can be trauma on top of trauma. Not to mention actual threats of violence, threats to our livelihood. Or the fact that in Andrea's situation (which is all to common) this affects her job, and even if kept secret makes her job harder to do. Everyday.

Confronting people about their behavior isn't just not easy. Its not just inconvenient. Its dangerous. And scary. Its a trauma of its own. I'm sorry Andrea had to go through this so publicly.

I want more than anything to report the man who assaulted me in high school, who was attracted to me when I was a child. He now works with access to children, is a spiritual leader to a community. It hurts me to think he could still be hurting people, destroying young women and families. But its my word against his, and he is powerful (financially and socially) and I am not. I'm burdened not only with my assault but knowing that I should report it to save others, but also that I could be sued for slander or could get in trouble for reporting him.

I hope I can be brave like Andrea, and maybe find away to hopefully make the right decision, when I figure out what that is. (in the back of my mind, the victim part of me blames myself, and worries that I'd be somehow doing wrong- destroying his community, that maybe him being a rabbi is a way to eschew those urges, I could be the only one, would it be worth it, could i do more harm than good? I don't know.)

Being able to discuss these things openly is important. Everyone who weighed in, I value their contributions. As always, thank you to everyone for providing an environment where this can be discussed. That way we can all do better and hopefully feel better.

Thank you.
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Last edited by snowflake; 11-07-2017 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:55 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Poor Kyle

Feel bad for Kyle - he was really funny and made for a great show until Hemda had to push the agenda forward for her spread sheet she is so proud of to "call out" sexual advances, not rape tbc, just sexual advances that men in the world have made before. Then cornered Andrea on subjects she wasn't wanting to talk about again and make DeVito out to be a rapist again and again for asking drunkenly a drunk girl for a hand job.

The whole show derailed at everyone's expense especially Kyle's when Hemda saw her opportunity to make everything about her current crusade. Wish we could keep that stuff on her show and let the comedy show be comedy.

To be clear discussing the rapes and bullshit in the news is of course very different then the targeting of individuals who are now being publicly insinuated as rapists for making a sexual advance on anyone Hemda knows.
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