2811: In the Pants

[Mermaid]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

By white people, maybe. Not by black men. Definitely not in the last 50 years. You literally just gave an example of how you feel about women carrying trashbags. I'm assuming you or your mother are black here, to be fair. I could be wrong.

My annoyance with the situation was with the obvious difference in effort needed to carry the trash. Not with her inability or fragility. (Like what you were saying with the playing to each others strengths thing. There is an obvious choice in this situation for who is better for picking up heavy things.)

Both me and my mother take out our own garbage.

We were annoyed at his big broad shouldered ass watching her do the side shuffle with the garbage. (my mom eventually helped)

However, even though it doesn't really apply to this scenario. I want to make clear that my argument isn't that gender roles aren't in the black community. Its that they aren't based on black men seeing black women as fragile or weak. Its black men wanting to display their manhood and black women wanting to display their femininity.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

It's not a bad thing for that person, it's a bad thing when it becomes the expectation of the gender. Which is what I've been saying. It's a trap because when you and everyone else fall into it, it becomes crystalized in amber as the expectation of the gender. Because of the historical context. I believe that needs to be dismantled before they are every fully independent of the restrictive gender roles

I agree with this. But how does this look, if it doesn't look like people choosing whats right for them even if its an established gender role? I can't say I like the idea of an over-correction in the other direction first.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

"You said that is was just American culture and not connected to race or money. If you strip American culture of race and money, what is left?"

I most certainly did not. I said that chivalry specifically was not related to race. And is no longer a matter of money. It's simply a gender role. It doesn't matter who is making more money in most cases.

"And yes, black men also do the same thing. It has the exact same undertone because it's coming from the exact same place. Chivalry is a gender role thing, it hasn't been especially racialized. Black men did it for black women, and now for other women because that's legal now. That's American culture. It's literally not about money (but that is it's origin), it's mostly gender. Many women expect the man to pay for the first date even if they make more."

So what you are saying is that chivalry is related to American culture but is not related to race or money.

I'm saying that American culture is largely about race and money.



chivalry = American culture = race & money

therefore

chivalry = race & money

Especially since American chivalry has roots in the upper southern states like the Carolina's bringing back old Victorian ideals of honorable gentlemen and genteel women during antebellum times. The southern "culture of honor"

[Amravanti]

Disagree with your last assertion that chivalry is necessarily about fragility specifically, and again, I haven’t said it once.

And yes, American culture is largely, but not exclusively, about race and money. Gender is as woven into th fabric of the country as either of the two, and he three interact and act separately on occasion.

There are parts of American culture that aren’t especially racialized. Chivalry, or gender roles, to an admittedly lesser extent, i think, is one of them. The same trends occur in black people. That is what I was saying, you can disagree with that, but disagree with what I’m actually saying.

[Mermaid]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Disagree with your last assertion that chivalry is necessarily about fragility specifically, and again, I haven’t said it once.

And yes, American culture is largely, but not exclusively, about race and money. Gender is as woven into th fabric of the country as either of the two, and he three interact and act separately on occasion.

There are parts of American culture that aren’t especially racialized. Chivalry, or gender roles, to an admittedly lesser extent, i think, is one of them. The same trends occur in black people. That is what I was saying, you can disagree with that, but disagree with what I’m actually saying.

Chilvary being about fragility is not something you had to say. It is not something that I claimed that you said. However, female fragility is indeed a part of the origin of chilvary. Your agreeance or disagreeance is of no consequence to its history.

I disagree about gender, race, or money being able to exist independently of each other in any context in American culture. They are so intricately woven together that it's just not possible. Especially in a social aspect of culture such as gender roles.

I am not denying you your personal experience with gender roles.

However this is one of those sociology subjects that has been discussed and researched at length. The receipts are there. "Racial Differences in Men's Attitudes About Women's Gender Roles" is a good article to get a general difference in racial expectations of men. (Sorry I can't link, I started typing this reply on my phone without thinking. But if you want I can link you to more recent studies.)

[Amravanti]

Go ahead and link.

My point isn't about the origins of chivalry, but it's current state. Which is why I'm divorcing it from being necessarily about money and fragility. I think we're pretty done here, but I'll read your receipts when you have time to post them.

[Mermaid]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Go ahead and link.

My point isn't about the origins of chivalry, but it's current state. Which is why I'm divorcing it from being necessarily about money and fragility. I think we're pretty done here, but I'll read your receipts when you have time to post them.

Examining current culture and behavior without historical context is disingenuous.

Very thorough paper on the intersectionality of gender, race and socioeconomic status and how they affect gender expectations.

Paper on black male masculinity's affect on gender roles in romantic relationships and its origins