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Old 10-08-2007, 03:13 PM   #101 (permalink)
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But that's my point, MKL. There IS no magical free market and I would argue that such a pure thing would never exist in the actual world. So that's where you end up in capitalist systems with government/private companies giving each other hand jobs. No philosphical system will ever exist in its purest form with practical application. Everything gets muddy once you take it out of theory and put it into practice.

Blackwater's overbearing military presence isn't a symptom of government doing what government is *supposed* to be doing. Corporate cronyism is just one way in which the magical "free market" gets muddied once it hits the street.
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Old 10-08-2007, 03:25 PM   #102 (permalink)
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But that's my point, MKL. There IS no magical free market and I would argue that such a pure thing would never exist in the actual world. So that's where you end up in capitalist systems with government/private companies giving each other hand jobs. No philosphical system will ever exist in its purest form with practical application. Everything gets muddy once you take it out of theory and put it into practice.

Blackwater's overbearing military presence isn't a symptom of government doing what government is *supposed* to be doing. Corporate cronyism is just one way in which the magical "free market" gets muddied once it hits the street.
Well, not that I believe it, but Ian's response would be that it is possible to have a free market as long as there is no government. There is nothing magical about a free market, but you can't have it in an environment where the government can print money whenever they want.
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Old 10-08-2007, 03:43 PM   #103 (permalink)
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There are major flaws when *any* philosophical theory is applied to real life. In theory, it sounds great to say that all citizens deserve equal access to all material goods and social services no matter what their socioeconomic status. But in real life, such systems have historically been rife with corruption and the stratification of classes still exists.

In theory, it sounds great to say that the "free market" will determine value and every individual is worth only as much as what they contribute whether through their labor or the intrinsic value of their societal contributions (determined by the market). However in practice, such systems have historically been rife with corruption and the stratification of classes has very little to do with how much actual work people are doing. Fuck all if you're going to tell me that some rich asshole who only has money because his grandfather had money has more intrinsic societal worth than some poor schmuck who's working two jobs and still doesn't even have health care benefits, or that an actor is worth a thousand times more than a teacher, cop, or fireman when it comes to societal contribution.

Ian and his ilk can argue until they're blue in the face about how everything from health care to police work should be privatized because the government fucks everything up, but just take a look at some of the shit going down with Blackwater and the slow privatization of our military and tell me that doesn't stink up a goddamned storm, too.

What's my answer? I don't have one. The only common denominator to the problems with any system is mankind. As a race we have a propensity to let ourselves get fucked up when power and authority get involved. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that.
very well said.
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Old 10-09-2007, 07:40 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Well, not that I believe it, but Ian's response would be that it is possible to have a free market as long as there is no government. There is nothing magical about a free market, but you can't have it in an environment where the government can print money whenever they want.

I think that even if our government vanished today, something else would come around to take its place, and it wouldn't be a free market. There will always be corruption and bureaucratic bloat. Ian lives in a dream world. He has no practical solutions.

Our process of checks and balances is a good thing but it's been eroded under our current administration.
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Old 10-09-2007, 09:07 AM   #105 (permalink)
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I think that even if our government vanished today, something else would come around to take its place, and it wouldn't be a free market. There will always be corruption and bureaucratic bloat. Ian lives in a dream world. He has no practical solutions.

Our process of checks and balances is a good thing but it's been eroded under our current administration.

I would agree with you. However, I enjoy that some people have idealistic goals and dreams. That way at least we can start moving closer to them, instead of just giving up. I don't agree government could or should go away, but I think it needs to be smaller, so I can at least partially agree with Ians way of thinking.
His solutions aren't practical, but hopefully it gets people thinking.
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Old 10-09-2007, 09:28 AM   #106 (permalink)
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I would agree with you. However, I enjoy that some people have idealistic goals and dreams. That way at least we can start moving closer to them, instead of just giving up. I don't agree government could or should go away, but I think it needs to be smaller, so I can at least partially agree with Ians way of thinking.
His solutions aren't practical, but hopefully it gets people thinking.
same can be said of my solutions.

however, i think that adopting some more socialism is more practical then his radical libertarianism

there can never be true free markets because certain goods and services will be performed LESS efficiently (if at all) if they existed under a "true" free market. it just can't work its not at all realistic.
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Old 10-09-2007, 09:29 AM   #107 (permalink)
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I guess I'm just too cynical for hopes and dreams, heh. That's really sad, I know. I actually lean libertarian, just not as extreme as Ian or even Ron Paul.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:05 AM   #108 (permalink)
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same can be said of my solutions.

however, i think that adopting some more socialism is more practical then his radical libertarianism
I agree Deuce, your stuff is also thought provoking. I just can't agree with it, since my focus for politics is on personal freedom and liberty. Your ideas just can not co-exist in my spectrum of how the government should operate.
However, there are obviosuly people out there who share your ideas, so keep promoting them.

I think the more practical solution for me is not Ians radical views, but they are closer to that than the view of providing more socialist programs. I don't think we are going to agree, our priorities for the small things are just too different.

Thats the great thing about Free Talk Live, anyone can call in. Be prepared to defend your ideas, because FTL won't let you get away with anything without backup data and rational, but at least they give you time to talk.
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:21 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Blackwater's overbearing military presence isn't a symptom of government doing what government is *supposed* to be doing. Corporate cronyism is just one way in which the magical "free market" gets muddied once it hits the street.
Blackwater, KBR, DEH, and all those contractors in Iraq have an overbearing presence. I was on a PSD for a few months and we were replaced by a team of contractors, they did the exact same thing we did, the only difference was they got better weapons and got paid about 9 times as much as we do.
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:53 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Can't blame 'em for going to the higher paid jobs, hell, they're quite elite. Minimum four years in US Military Special Forces or equivalent.

By the way Gunner, I'm not sure if you saw my above post, but I'll add to it; I appreciate your service, you are doing the job of a real man, hopefully I'll be able to join you in a couple years, ... not the actual you, as the chances of that are slim, but the figurative you... the royal you... speaking of the US Military. But to add to earlier, if you send me or others your address once you get deployed, I'll be happy to send some stuff to you and your unit. I help run the annual drive for our school that goes out to those serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, I could probably swing it so that at least some of the total collection gets to you, if you're interested...

Regards,
Alex
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