591: A Hero's Departure

[deuce]

Originally Posted by mkl

Aren't hospitals and nursing homes both "for profit" services? Why force someone to serve a business. If you go that route, you might as well force people to work at McDonalds. Now if I work at a hospital for 2 years and they cut me a break on my $20,000 in medical bills later in life...I may be less upset.

i also advocate national health care...

so not really thinking about private hospitals...but even so there are public hospitals and health care centers that could benefit from the service of talented youth

[deuce]

Originally Posted by mkl

Deuce. I think most of us "get" what you are saying. We just don't agree with it. The government getting involved in something tends to make it bureaucratic and inefficient. Masta won't be picking cotton beside sambo. Why? Because a politicians kid will get the plum assignment even with national service. Some congressman's kid will end up doing his national service by being a page in DC smoking cigars and serving coffee in an A/C'd room. A poor black kid from Georgia will end up on the front lines.
Did the mandatory draft in the 60's help race relations?

Currently African Americans use 15% of the Drugs in America, but make up 60% of those arrested for drugs. The government is not the cure for racism.



*Edited to add*
" i challange you to compare the funding schools that are made up of a african american majority to those of majority white schools..."
And just to let you know, I think this is unfair. That is why I think the government should not be in the public education business. Give each kid the money and let them go to private school if they want.

i agree with you the problem is that you view it as an us or them... i.e. government verse the people. i am saying that these policies have an equalizing effect and will reclaim the government for the people. as opposed to today where our government is desperately trying to hold on to the power that has been in their hands since the mayflower.

i think if we discussed we would find we share many of the same beliefs

***(in true "deuce" fashion) "why don't we talk? what?? you don't like me?? cmon!!" :P

[mkl]

Originally Posted by deuce

I never advocated only MILITARY service. i am advocating a variety of civic programs that benefit all. comparing that too slavery is absurd

we require our children to go to school is that slavery? i am saying that even a democratic society could stand to benefit from a very socialist idea..

every body chps in to make the country better. and those that don't like it (which would be most) will gain a more intimate connection with those of any other race religion or background because their country's service is their common denominator. maybe people would be more than just superficiallly polite to each other in our society.

it would be a chance for everyone to feel like an american. instead of just the american dream for some. i am not advocating a complete socialist society either. just a better allocation of the resources available to contribute to the "public good" (i.e. needs). this may even lower our taxes and certainly would be using those funds more efficiantly.

Deuce, I have been talking about you, but not to you.
I think your ideas are good. I really do, I think it some countries they will, and do work well. However, the big opposition you are facing with people (especially FTL) is that you are talking to people who think that freedom is the most important value in our society. They are never going to agree that the government forcing you to do something is good. To these people (and I am included) government coercion is never a good thing. We as a people have gotten together and agreed to give up some of our freedoms to the government so that we can have a society with laws and controls. However, a lot of us still feel we want to maintain as much individual freedoms as possible. So while I glady give up some of my rights so that we can have police, and laws, etc, I do not want to give up my time for service. I think you are correct that we may benefit as a society with mandatory service. However, I am unwilling to force people to do it to find out. I also think we would benefit as a society if we forcibly sterilized the poor. Again however, I am unwilling to do that, as I value the freedom of people to have children over the benefit to society.
I think you have some good ideas, but I could never in good conscious agree that government coercion to take my labor by force for any purpose is a better choice than allowing me the freedom to make my own decisions.

[Testicular]

Deuce you are much better in writing than stammering and swearing on the radio. I'm glad you've come to defend yourself. Besides I was tired of replying to teens with the parents Internet line.

Originally Posted by deuce

everybody serves get it??
masta is picking cotton alongside sambo. you see how that might change your perspective?

If you think Masta is gonna be pickin anything you're insane. We had a draft in this country. Look at our current Masta's Bush / Cheney. During Vietnam Bush had daddy put him state side with a nice flying job that tax payers paid to have him train only to have him refuse a piss test after his birthday because he was doing too much coke, and excused himself where he decided to go AWOL and go to Yale. Cheney received lots of student and family draft deterrents.

My point is the rich do not have to do anything they do not want to do. If you think otherwise you are lying to yourself.

All aside... I honestly think that we both have the same goals in mind. You think that you can force integration with the government and their guns. I think it can be honestly done without them.

not only that 100 to 1 you are caucasian?? so where was all the equality and freedom talk of our country's forefathers when they imported Africans??

did they do that to "liberate" them as well?

First of all, I am my own person and I owe NO ONE. Second, you left this country sir, I'm not sure how you can tell any American what to do.

the status quo is not slavery?

My take is that you are saying that the military is overly populated by children of poor families?

I agree with you. At least noone at this point is forcing them to do so. With a draft you saw what happened to Bush/Cheney.

I think your goal is to reduce the inequities of the US Government's military. Personally I think a lot could be done by removing the federal income tax. This tax was originally enacted to fund WW2. Yet we still have it to this day. We have been in more undeclared wars since then than any time. Our income taxes fund the US Govts. war machine.

dude, you need to take a humanistic view to world affairs

I need to do nothing of the sort, I am my own person.

I think we both agree on the outcome we want. I think you're going about it in a forceful way that is likely to make rich people richer and poor people poorer. Which is where we're going anyway...

So instead of beating around the bush Deuce -- why don't you come out and actually say what you actually want to achieve out of your socialistic mentality. Then we can work together on it.

-- Ron Paul 2008!

[mkl]

Originally Posted by deuce

i agree with you the problem is that you view it as an us or them... i.e. government verse the people. i am saying that these policies have an equalizing effect and will reclaim the government for the people. as opposed to today where our government is desperately trying to hold on to the power that has been in their hands since the mayflower.

i think if we discussed we would find we share many of the same beliefs

***(in true "deuce" fashion) "why don't we talk? what?? you don't like me?? cmon!!" :P

I agree, we probably have the same beliefs. We just have different ideas about how to get to the same end result. You want to put laws and policies in place to try and make society better. I want to give people the personal freedom to have the ability to decide for themselves the society they want to live in, and make it better.
Again, I can't agree that forcing me to serve the government in any way is the correct approach in this country. I think there are ample ways people can donate their time now and help each other, and that is done every day. Millions of people in this country donate their time and money to help the less fortunate without the government forcing them to. That is the society I want to live in, where people give not because they are forced, but because they honestly want to.

[deuce]

Originally Posted by mkl

Deuce, I have been talking about you, but not to you.
I think your ideas are good. I really do, I think it some countries they will, and do work well. However, the big opposition you are facing with people (especially FTL) is that you are talking to people who think that freedom is the most important value in our society. They are never going to agree that the government forcing you to do something is good. To these people (and I am included) government coercion is never a good thing. We as a people have gotten together and agreed to give up some of our freedoms to the government so that we can have a society with laws and controls. However, a lot of us still feel we want to maintain as much individual freedoms as possible. So while I glady give up some of my rights so that we can have police, and laws, etc, I do not want to give up my time for service. I think you are correct that we may benefit as a society with mandatory service. However, I am unwilling to force people to do it to find out. I also think we would benefit as a society if we forcibly sterilized the poor. Again however, I am unwilling to do that, as I value the freedom of people to have children over the benefit to society.
I think you have some good ideas, but I could never in good conscious agree that government coercion to take my labor by force for any purpose is a better choice than allowing me the freedom to make my own decisions.

WHOA!! i resent that you would list the idea of sterilizing the poor with the topic we are discussing.

i say our freedoms our being compromised now by the bush administration. PATRIOT ACT, wiretapping, etc these privacies we are giving up in order to feel safe. we keep relinquishing power to the government instead of becoming the government.

there lies a problem with the definition of freedom being used (or more aptly the perspective) the status quo is the real slavery...here is why?

you have many personal freedoms..you have the right to not serve.. yet you also have the right to send others to war. that doesnt seem fair if the majority f the population has the ability to send a minority to war.

i believe that WITHOUT compromising freedoms we could change things for the better. just as the obligation to go to primary school is not slavery, having to work for America is not encroaching on your freedoms.

[Bastardman]

Good job Deuce!

I know that you didn't come off as articulate as you wanted too, but I feel what you had to say. I support mandatory service too! I was a little dickhead too untill I joined the service, and joining gave me an opportunity to step out of my stupid little head and be part of something bigger than myself.

That radio dude was lame. The dude is a convicted accessory to murder, so his opinion is pretty much shit... Fuck those guys!!

Gunner, thanx for what you do. I know you feel like it's whatevs, but it'll mean something a few years for now. Ez brother, be safe....

[mkl]

Originally Posted by deuce

WHOA!! i resent that you would list the idea of sterilizing the poor with the topic we are discussing.

i say our freedoms our being compromised now by the bush administration. PATRIOT ACT, wiretapping, etc these privacies we are giving up in order to feel safe. we keep relinquishing power to the government instead of becoming the government.

there lies a problem with the definition of freedom being used (or more aptly the perspective) the status quo is the real slavery...here is why?

you have many personal freedoms..you have the right to not serve.. yet you also have the right to send others to war. that doesnt seem fair if the majority f the population has the ability to send a minority to war.

i believe that WITHOUT compromising freedoms we could change things for the better. just as the obligation to go to primary school is not slavery, having to work for America is not encroaching on your freedoms.

Deuce. I know it will be hard for you to believe, but to me, forcing a person to serve the government is the same as forcing them to not have children. They are both the government taking away my freedoms. I understand how to you they seem very far apart, but to me, they are right next to each other. Until you can see that I value all of these freedoms equally, you and I will never be able to understand each other on this topic.

I do not like the status quo either.I think it is getting closer to slavery. I am going the other direction from you however, instead of giving the government MORE power, I want to give them less. I want to remove the patriot act, and all that crap. I want a government that stays out of my life. All I have learned is, the more power you give government, the more corruption you have. So I want to remove the unnecessary power from the government. By forcing service, you want to give them MORE power over me. So I can not agree with it.

[deuce]

Originally Posted by Bastardman

Gunner, thanx for what you do. I know you feel like it's whatevs, but it'll mean something a few years for now. Ez brother, be safe....

Amen. Gunner, be safe. Whatever our differences, I have the utmost respect for you and what you are doing out there. My prayers are with you and all our heroes.

[deuce]

Originally Posted by mkl

Deuce. I know it will be hard for you to believe, but to me, forcing a person to serve the government is the same as forcing them to not have children. They are both the government taking away my freedoms. I understand how to you they seem very far apart, but to me, they are right next to each other. Until you can see that I value all of these freedoms equally, you and I will never be able to understand each other on this topic.

I do not like the status quo either.I think it is getting closer to slavery. I am going the other direction from you however, instead of giving the government MORE power, I want to give them less. I want to remove the patriot act, and all that crap. I want a government that stays out of my life. All I have learned is, the more power you give government, the more corruption you have. So I want to remove the unnecessary power from the government. By forcing service, you want to give them MORE power over me. So I can not agree with it.

valid point. my hope would be however that this service would serve to break this division of government and people. and cause a redistribution of power from the old ruling class families which seem to still run America and put that power into the hands of the people.


i also believe that a parlimentary system of democracy may be better than our current government. as it seems that currently a two party system will never bring about the changes that the people our obviously crying out for.