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I've always thought that post holocaust a return to their holy land was a natural response, but for external imperialists powers to declare them a sovereign nation was going to piss of the people that were already there, especially when laws start getting passed based on people ethnicity/religion. I really believe that if a jewish state needed to be established in order to establish the security and future of the jewish people and faith then they should have carved them out a big chunk of Germany, which I don't think at the time anyone would have been in a position to contest. |
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Cheers to good intentions and the f*ckin' mess they make. |
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also, we are not going to just go back to the 67 borders so it will show our good intentions. we need a signed treaty that will make both sides stop shooting while we discuss borders. |
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Some other interesting talking points .... -the Jewish settlements on land "belonging" to Palestinians are still there in spite of US resolutions, and were usually the targets for missiles before the ceasefire and after its cessation. - much of the Israeli Army is Russian. They were immigrants fleeing the post-soviet mess looking for a better life. The Palestinians were born there and their children have been born into refugee camps in some of the most crowded and inhumain conditions in the world. And now they are imprisoned without even medical aid (humanitarian corridor opened by Israel? how generous!) - it was widely reported, although officially denied, that Cheyney had OKed Israeli military action in advance - Israel have been bombing administration and security force "targets" as well as the "terrorists". All police stations were levelled in the first 48 hours including one that was celebrating a passing out ceremony of cadets, killing 40 of them - US have vetoed UN sanctions against Israel that would have allowed aid. - Palestinians elected leaders from Hamas. A sign that the majority of Palestinians believe Hamas are the best group to defend their remaining land. |
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Keith, you have to make it Kahmedy to bring it home. It's the way you can get the point acrooss with a punch. The U.S. needs to threaten to blow shit up and mean it if the kids on the playground can't behave and keep their hands to themselves, fuck 'em. Just like Regan with the Soviet Republic. It worked. I'm pretty sure we were born the same year.... '74. Do you remember when you were six or seven and watching Palestinians and Israelis shoot each other up w/AK-47s while our parents watched the news on Friday or Saturday night news? 60 minutes? Andy's brows didn't quite reach out and touch you like they do now....And then you might have watched that boring crap on Sunday morn (the boring show with the sun fixture in the background) during breakfast? Same fuckin' shit. Diff Day. Nothing new Right? Nothing's new. It's the 2000 year old war over shite. I call Brumsky. Grab friends and foes by the balls and let them know The United States cares. Quote:
The 2000 year old fight. It's easy: USA was established by old school Christians breaking away from England. They had a lot more in common with beliefs of their heritage- Christian based faith evolving from the Bible vs. the Qur'an. The U.S. is getting farther away from old school founding father laws and dispositions, collectively, as the melting pot boils in the U.S. after the liberal movement in the late sixties. Times are different and we can have differences and agree to disagree now without ridicule from our next door neighbors. I don't know if we "fund" Israel so to say, but we do sell them F-16s and munitions. We never sell any allies new shit i.e. F-22 Raptors or top end smart missiles. They get old shit so if they do anything that doesn't meet up with our national interests, fuck you. It's not blindly funding as you put it, respectively. It's just political evolution governing our country's world influence. The far right is hard core Israeli biased. Some of our hard core left countrymen are now backing Hamas and the Islamic Resistance Movement. No matter what side you believe in, the fighting is fucked and been going on for TWO MILLENNIUM. Now its just the same bullshit. Except we have to worry about NUKES now. The wrong fucker gets the right gun and the whole world blowes the fuck up. We gave Israel nukes already. Iran doesn't even back Hamas even though that Hamas hates Israel. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called Israel a stinking rotten corpse. Korea has the Nukes, Iran has good missiles. Does Iran want nuclear bomb capacity or already have it right under our noses? You think it out. How should the world protect itself? Is the U.S. responsible for keeping that shit out of Irans hands? Does the U.S. have the capacity to prevent this? Regan dealt with a similar situation with success. The sad realization is that it wont go away until we blow each other or the whole world up or just sing that Coca Cola song from the 80's and hope for the best. Snoop Dog: "6,000,000 ways to die.... Chose One." |
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2. Palestinians elected Hamas, but Hamas ousted Fatah from Gaza. The Palestinians are in a state of civil war. It's not as simple as the party with the most votes leads. There's factionalism down to the family clan level. That's why organizing the Palestinians is so difficult. Israel doesn't have one negotiating partner, they have Abbas and they have other groups that are at war with it. 3. Israel has plenty of ex-Russians. So what? A citizen of a nation is not necessarily born there. In our Civil War many Union soldiers were German or Irish immigrants fighting men with long ties to their respective southern states. A citizen is a citizen. Nations can enact different immigration policies if they so choose. I also notice you overlook that Israel was built on approximately one million Jewish immigrants from Arab nations over the years 1948-1957 who were illegally expelled and dispossessed of their property just as much if not more so than the Palestinians. Where is your call for their reparations? It's not as simple as "this land was my grandfather's, kind of". Land claims can go even further back than that. Do Jews who were expelled centuries ago have a claim? If not, why do Palestinians? What we have here is two groups of people that need two states. Israel needs to halt settlement in the West Bank and probably retract some of them as a good faith gesture. However, it takes two to tango. The Palestinians need to get their shit together and get one government to represent them. That government needs to recognize Israel's right to exist and come to the bargaining table for peace. Until then, more war, and it's going to hurt the Palestinians a lot more than the Israelis. Oh, and this blind funding shit is just wrong. America funds Egypt's regime and sends them F-16's, too, Egypt just uses them to prop up their corrupt regime whereas Israel uses them on terrorists. |
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History has given different people "residential rights" to various areas over the years. In some cases (like the British Empire) it was temporary, and the residents regained control. In others it is transient ... and previous residents are permanently displaced. In these cases, claiming a 2000+ year-old God-given right of return is quite a difficult story to defend. But most of the Western countries played a part in this bugger's muddle. Just as most of the Middle East has practiced religion-based residency rules as you point out. I would personally like to visit the birthplace of Jesus, which logically (if we apply Biblical land rights) should be "owned" by the Christians. Instead it is treated by irreverence by both Muslims and Jews alike, and Christian pilgrims can be caught in the crossfire, literally. The point about Russian jews (and some of them were not Jewish, but simply migrants from Russia claiming jewish faith to get a new life) was the irony of an immigrant seeking a higher lifestyle displacing a resident to a concentration camp (refugee camp). The further irony of Russia is that Israel was financing, or at least assisting Georgia in its tussle with Russia recently .... hard to choose friends these days, isn't it. |
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That said, even if the right is not given theologically why is a right of return for a people expelled 2000 years ago wrong? Is there a time limit for returning? If so, why can't Israel just stall until Palestinians lose all claim to their land? 2. Russian Jews immigrating to Israel didn't result in anyone getting SENT to Gaza. Displacement can occur in the West Bank, though. As for Israel selling arms to Georgia, Georgia imported arms from many nations friendly with the US, Israel being one of those friends. Russian Jews weren't leaving Russia because Russia was such a great place to be a Jew. My ancestors are proof of that. You seem to think that all those Russian Jews make Israel have great ties with Russia. Not so. It's not like all those Jews left Russia because Russia was friendly with Israel, then Israel switched sides and backed Georgia. |
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Israel is actually a bit larger than New Jersey
Size Comparison Map of Israel and New Jersey But four hours across and eight hours long? Uh, no. 250 miles north to south or so. Maybe 100 miles across at its widest point. Jus' sayin' |
Andy Rooney is on 60 Minutes. Keith and Chemda are on Keith and The Girl. Where, evidently, "Keith and his girlfriend talk shit." I'm guessing 60 Minutes purports to have a little bit more journalistic intent. What's more, Rooney prepares his segments, while political topics on KATG frequently come up spontaneously.
I've been looking through this thread, Mr. DaveNJ, and you seem to have ignored my post in order to go pick on weaker arguments. Are we having a serious discussion, or a Push DaveNJ's Agenda silly time? You're continuing with your argument, despite the fact that I pointed out flagrant flaws in your reasoning. There's more you're adding the pile, but I don't see a point in continuing if you're just going to be a rigid robot that defeats what it can, and side-steps what it can't. |
For those who care, here's a good backgrounder on the whole damn mess over there. It all started with the damned Balfour Declaration. In fact, most of the conflicts in that part of the world date back to that document and other 'solutions' the British provided as they slowly pulled back from their Empire.
- India-Pakistan-Kashmir - Israel-Palestine - Iraq-Iran and the Sunni-Shia issue History of the Palestine Problem |
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America funds lots of shit heads, that doesn't mean we should give Israel an insurmountable military edge over Palestine. |
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That's gotta be the best freakin' analogy I've ever come up with! |
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It really is absurd to base modern land ownership on property lines of 2,000 years ago.
Where the fuck does that leave people like me, who have a varied background and no extreme religious views? Are you going to give me your house, DaveNJ? Because a homeland is essential for atheists from a line of immigrants who were reasonable enough to become assimilated into the country they moved to rather than try to forge it into something new. In fact, such a cause would be even more worthy than the Jewish one, because my people have NEVER had a homeland. And if we're really going to consider giving a religious group land purely because their people were on it a long time ago, don't we have to ask why they had it in the first place? Even the Bible portrays the Jews as as warlike and bloodthirsty as every other peoples surrounding biblical Israel (like in Numbers, for example, when Moses commands Israelites to "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." That's a quote from the motherfucking Bible). So by what right do the Jews own that land? If we do not believe their religion to be true, it is as likely as not that they gained the land by bloodshed, and that gives them no right to anything. If we are to believe their religion is true, we are now giving land to a religious group solely because they claim it was God's will. That would never hold up in our own courts of law for even the most trivial of matters, so why the hell does it work for an entire country? Any modern civilization that distributes land based on the will of a deity is a sham and a disgrace, and every other civilization would have a moral obligation to violently resist such nonsense. |
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Oh, and it's the same for Palestinians - most couldn't establish lineage directly back to 1000BC or so although they'd be closer than modern Jews. Jus' sayin' |
Hell, speaking of ethnicity, I work with a woman who insists that the biblical Jews were African. Does she, as a person of African descent, have the right to lay claim to an Israeli's house?
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:D Thanks DD - I recognize talent when I hear it - best of luck with your upcoming performances. |
I scraped all the politcal stuff and reposted it in talk shite under Israeli Palestinian Conflict Thread hoping that this will be an ongoing discussion with more commentary by the general community
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KATG the Musical
I think it would be cool if KATG put together a compilation album of the artist that are involved with the show.
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In other news,
What was the BroLo song that 4" Stud played? I liked that one more then the others, but to each his own. |
I liked what was said about Christmas, and how it should be for children instead of adults buying for each other. I would love to do secret santa and get one good gift instead of crappy gifts, but like Keith said there are some people you would hate to get one gift from. It sounds greedy, but I imgaine I wouldn't enjoy seeing my uneducated drug abusing cousin getting a digital camera that he is going pawn off for ciggerates while I recieve expired candy in a tin from the dollar tree from my fruggle uncle.
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