903: What's Yours is Mine

[batlash]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

That argument doesn't work for a number of reasons.

One, because I live in California, where waiters are payed at least minimum wage, generally more.

Two, I wouldn't be depriving anyone of a proper wage. The system would be. Or the employer. That's sort of the main point I've tried to make here. How can anyone seriously blame a customer for an employee's wages?

Also, this may be shaky logic, but staying home in effect has the same outcome as not tipping. I end up depriving the restaurant of business.<.br><br> [SNIP]<br><br>
This must be annoying to everyone at this point, so I'm officially done with this now. Promise. It's obvious no one agrees with me and no one is going to change my mind.

For sake of arguement, I've posted the standards set by the US dept. of Labour Standards at U.S. Department of Labor - Employment Standards Administration (ESA) - Wage & Hour Divisions (WHD) - Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees

According to them, there is a minimum set under federal statutes for cash wages ( $ 2.13 ) and does set a minimum "cash + tips" wage ( $ 6.55 ), so if companies are following the law - which many do NOT - the wage is supplemented by the employer if it's not met by tips. It should be noted that in NYC that the combined min. set is $ 7.15.

In Calfornia, the minimum set is a "lofty" $ 8.00/hr CASH wages ( before any tips ) - so assuming you only go to establishments that respect the law - giving them no tip is not "stealing" as much as it is defying customary traditions.

That being said, a LOT of establishments are scumbags and do NOT respect these minimum standards set by law. Knowing that, does that make a difference?

[Amravanti]

Thank you very much. That's all I was saying. It's a tradition, not an obligation. One I subscribe to when my means allow.

So waiters are supposed to get at least minimum wage, but are often stiffed by their employers. That is shitty. I don't see how I'm wrong to blame the system or employers for this, and I don't know why that one guy brought race back into it.

I've never seen a serving position here in California advertised for less than 8/h + tips. And it's usually at least 9. And I did seriously consider being a waiter at one point, so I was looking through many of them. Waiters get by just fine here. I've worked for that much without tips.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Thank you very much. That's all I was saying. It's a tradition, not an obligation. One I subscribe to when my means allow.

So waiters are supposed to get at least minimum wage, but are often stiffed by their employers. That is shitty. I don't see how I'm wrong to blame the system or employers for this, and I don't know why that one guy brought race back into it.

I've never seen a serving position here in California advertised for less than 8/h + tips. And it's usually at least 9. And I did seriously consider being a waiter at one point, so I was looking through many of them.

Dude, you're shitty because you're supporting a shitty system by being a patron of a place that does shitty things and you don't rectify the shittiness yourself.

You're saying "If it's so bad don't work there or get paid more," but that's horseshit. Either go to a restaurant and tip the waiter properly or don't fucking go there at all. You're taking advantage of someone in a shitty situation by making them work as if you are paying them, but then you stiff them at the end of the meal.

If you're going to blame it on the system, don't go there. Those of us who are willing to tip will support the system and will pay waiters what they deserve, and they won't have to deal with your dumb ass fucking their night up.

And do you think you get any fucking credibility because you've seen ads for waiters and you considered becoming a waiter?

[Amravanti]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

And do you think you get any fucking credibility because you've seen ads for waiters and you considered becoming a waiter?

Not credibility for anything else but the statement that waiters aren't paid that badly here.

I blame the system here, but am not responsible for it. This is a system that people generally have to choose to be in. And I don't intend to suffer for it. But if I ever find that a place I eat at pays it's servers less than minimum wage, I promise to stop eating there. I'm making that promise to you, and I will keep it. It's not going to help the waiters any, but I'll do it, it's just going to deprive them of the tip they would have gotten 95% of the time, but I'll do it.

I'll won't give any more rebuttals, because I said I was done with this, and I've already sort of broken that. None of my responses now can be anything I haven't said before.

[BrokenAlice]

Finally caught up with this episode. Loved the McNally rant at the end. I kept wating for some baseball bats to hit parked cars or some other Michael Douglas "Falling Down" action.

[Grapist]

Originally Posted by BrokenAlice

Finally caught up with this episode. Loved the McNally rant at the end. I kept wating for some baseball bats to hit parked cars or some other Michael Douglas "Falling Down" action.

Like McNally could lift a bat.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Not credibility for anything else but the statement that waiters aren't paid that badly here.

I blame the system here, but am not responsible for it. This is a system that people generally have to choose to be in. And I don't intend to suffer for it. But if I ever find that a place I eat at pays it's servers less than minimum wage, I promise to stop eating there. I'm making that promise to you, and I will keep it. It's not going to help the waiters any, but I'll do it, it's just going to deprive them of the tip they would have gotten 95% of the time, but I'll do it.

I'll won't give any more rebuttals, because I said I was done with this, and I've already sort of broken that. None of my responses now can be anything I haven't said before.

How are you not responsible for it? You are funding the system, and refusing to correct it. How do you think the system would solve the problem of assholes like you? The ONLY answer is to raise the prices. So tipping is exactly the same as if the system was fixed, but you don't see fit to do it.

The fact is you see people who are depending on you to not mistreat them, and you piss in their face because, evidently, fuck them for hoping you'd just shell out the extra money that would be on the bill anyway if everybody was a fuck like you.

And I can't believe you're so stupid as to think by not eating out you're depriving waiters of money. If restaurants suddenly stop getting customers, they'll get rid of the tip thing. If they stay open, that means people are still coming, which means people who aren't cheap assholes are fixing the system, instead of taking advantage of it.

[batlash]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Dude, you're shitty because you're supporting a shitty system by being a patron of a place that does shitty things and you don't rectify the shittiness yourself.

You're saying "If it's so bad don't work there or get paid more," but that's horseshit. Either go to a restaurant and tip the waiter properly or don't fucking go there at all. You're taking advantage of someone in a shitty situation by making them work as if you are paying them, but then you stiff them at the end of the meal.

If you're going to blame it on the system, don't go there. Those of us who are willing to tip will support the system and will pay waiters what they deserve, and they won't have to deal with your dumb ass fucking their night up.

And do you think you get any fucking credibility because you've seen ads for waiters and you considered becoming a waiter?

Actually, he's completely right - you're just being stubborn about it.

In Calfornia where he lives - the basic CASH minimum standard ( without tips ) is $ 8.00/hr, so in fact they make minimum wage there. Assuming you only go to establishments that observe the basic minimum laws, then tipping is a CUSTOMARY practice, not an essential ( based on the fact that most people won't tip at McDonald's because they "at least" get min. wage ).

That being said, if you frequent and support establishments that do NOT respect minimum wage & labour standards - could it not be said that you freely support and respect scumbag behavior by these establishments, in a sense becoming a scumbag yourself if you do so. Tipping at this point - seems more like penance than a reward.

[batlash]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

How are you not responsible for it? You are funding the system, and refusing to correct it. How do you think the system would solve the problem of assholes like you? The ONLY answer is to raise the prices. So tipping is exactly the same as if the system was fixed, but you don't see fit to do it.

The fact is you see people who are depending on you to not mistreat them, and you piss in their face because, evidently, fuck them for hoping you'd just shell out the extra money that would be on the bill anyway if everybody was a fuck like you.

And I can't believe you're so stupid as to think by not eating out you're depriving waiters of money. If restaurants suddenly stop getting customers, they'll get rid of the tip thing. If they stay open, that means people are still coming, which means people who aren't cheap assholes are fixing the system, instead of taking advantage of it.

Actually, if you read on - he stated that if he found an establishment that did "mistreat" their employees by not satisfying the minimum standards set by law, that he'd stop frequenting there as a matter of principle.

As for your point of "if people still go there, they must have corrected the problem" - you could not be more wrong. Wal-Mart has a long and documented history of not exactly always being "fair" with it's employees, and people STILL shop there, and make the corporation even more money to add to it's coffers.

[Amravanti]

Okay, I give in. I fail. I can't help myself. I'll save everyone the trouble: I am a douche who has to make himself known and has to have the last word or I'll die.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

How are you not responsible for it? You are funding the system, and refusing to correct it. How do you think the system would solve the problem of assholes like you? The ONLY answer is to raise the prices. So tipping is exactly the same as if the system was fixed, but you don't see fit to do it.

Okay, that's sound logic. I've already said that I would not patronize any place that paid it's waiters less than minimum wage, but okay, let's go on. Let's pretend I never said that for the sake of argument. Which is what you seem to have done anyway.

I'm still only just as guilty as the waiter is for choosing to operate within the system, and thusly helping it to keep going. I'm as guilty as anyone who wears Nike, knowing that they're being made in Chinese sweat shops. I'm as guilty as everyone who eats meat and poultry, knowing that the squalor and cruelty those animals are subjected to would be considered illegal and morally reprehensible if they were pets. I hope you're not wearing nikes right now you self-righteous hypocrite. Everyone who eats at a restaurant that pays less than minumum wages is helping perpetuate the system, and punishing themselves and everyone else for it.

Except in those other cases, the victims are forced into it by a system or a culture that grants them no other choice. Whereas waiters choose their lot, probably make more than I did when I was working 3 years ago, and yet somehow still deserve tips or you're an asshole.

I think teachers should be paid more too, the system grossly undervalues their service. I'll sign any petition you want, but I'm not going to slip everyone a 50 every time I go to a PTA meeting.

I understand the situation, and I do what I can in all four situations, but I'm not going to be told I have to help someone out, even when I can't personally afford it. I can help someone at my own expense, which is what tipping is, but don't tell me I have to do it or I'm an asshole. That's not fair. I do try to help waiters, I do try to do what I can to counter the system, but at the same time, I'm not going to deny myself everything I love in life for every cause, every time, and I'm not going to feel like an asshole when I allow myself to drop the ball every now and again.

I'm fine with a raise in prices. The waiter should be getting paid his wage, and tips should be additional. And in a lot of cases that's how it is, and no, I don't know the wages of ever server every where I eat, but that goes both ways.

That last phrase in your last paragraph does not follow, by the way.

Now please, answer these two questions:

Does everyone agree that there's no obligation to tip a waiter that does get paid a proper wage? And if the average of all my tipping and lack thereof evens out to within acceptable amounts, am I still an asshole?