903: What's Yours is Mine

[Amravanti]

I'm not African American, and I've never disputed or doubted that black people tip less. I've even attempted to explain it. And this is probably the first time I've blamed the system for anything in my life.

That is all.


Oh, and I find that hard to believe about California, since we have the highest minimum wage in the country. I had to live on it for a time, by the way, so I know what it's like.

[Grapist]

A friend of mine wrote a free app for iphone/ipode-touch called Accutip. It made the business top 100 the first day and moved to 31 in free finance apps in 2. It has over 200 downloads, interestingly enough, there seem to be a lot of people in other countries downloading it. Noteably, Japan, Canada and Australia, along with others in various other countries. Maybe it will help educate tourists about tipping when they come here, who knows.

[batlash]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

That argument doesn't work for a number of reasons.

One, because I live in California, where waiters are payed at least minimum wage, generally more.

Two, I wouldn't be depriving anyone of a proper wage. The system would be. Or the employer. That's sort of the main point I've tried to make here. How can anyone seriously blame a customer for an employee's wages?

Also, this may be shaky logic, but staying home in effect has the same outcome as not tipping. I end up depriving the restaurant of business.<.br><br> [SNIP]<br><br>
This must be annoying to everyone at this point, so I'm officially done with this now. Promise. It's obvious no one agrees with me and no one is going to change my mind.

For sake of arguement, I've posted the standards set by the US dept. of Labour Standards at U.S. Department of Labor - Employment Standards Administration (ESA) - Wage & Hour Divisions (WHD) - Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees

According to them, there is a minimum set under federal statutes for cash wages ( $ 2.13 ) and does set a minimum "cash + tips" wage ( $ 6.55 ), so if companies are following the law - which many do NOT - the wage is supplemented by the employer if it's not met by tips. It should be noted that in NYC that the combined min. set is $ 7.15.

In Calfornia, the minimum set is a "lofty" $ 8.00/hr CASH wages ( before any tips ) - so assuming you only go to establishments that respect the law - giving them no tip is not "stealing" as much as it is defying customary traditions.

That being said, a LOT of establishments are scumbags and do NOT respect these minimum standards set by law. Knowing that, does that make a difference?

[Amravanti]

Thank you very much. That's all I was saying. It's a tradition, not an obligation. One I subscribe to when my means allow.

So waiters are supposed to get at least minimum wage, but are often stiffed by their employers. That is shitty. I don't see how I'm wrong to blame the system or employers for this, and I don't know why that one guy brought race back into it.

I've never seen a serving position here in California advertised for less than 8/h + tips. And it's usually at least 9. And I did seriously consider being a waiter at one point, so I was looking through many of them. Waiters get by just fine here. I've worked for that much without tips.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Thank you very much. That's all I was saying. It's a tradition, not an obligation. One I subscribe to when my means allow.

So waiters are supposed to get at least minimum wage, but are often stiffed by their employers. That is shitty. I don't see how I'm wrong to blame the system or employers for this, and I don't know why that one guy brought race back into it.

I've never seen a serving position here in California advertised for less than 8/h + tips. And it's usually at least 9. And I did seriously consider being a waiter at one point, so I was looking through many of them.

Dude, you're shitty because you're supporting a shitty system by being a patron of a place that does shitty things and you don't rectify the shittiness yourself.

You're saying "If it's so bad don't work there or get paid more," but that's horseshit. Either go to a restaurant and tip the waiter properly or don't fucking go there at all. You're taking advantage of someone in a shitty situation by making them work as if you are paying them, but then you stiff them at the end of the meal.

If you're going to blame it on the system, don't go there. Those of us who are willing to tip will support the system and will pay waiters what they deserve, and they won't have to deal with your dumb ass fucking their night up.

And do you think you get any fucking credibility because you've seen ads for waiters and you considered becoming a waiter?

[Amravanti]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

And do you think you get any fucking credibility because you've seen ads for waiters and you considered becoming a waiter?

Not credibility for anything else but the statement that waiters aren't paid that badly here.

I blame the system here, but am not responsible for it. This is a system that people generally have to choose to be in. And I don't intend to suffer for it. But if I ever find that a place I eat at pays it's servers less than minimum wage, I promise to stop eating there. I'm making that promise to you, and I will keep it. It's not going to help the waiters any, but I'll do it, it's just going to deprive them of the tip they would have gotten 95% of the time, but I'll do it.

I'll won't give any more rebuttals, because I said I was done with this, and I've already sort of broken that. None of my responses now can be anything I haven't said before.

[BrokenAlice]

Finally caught up with this episode. Loved the McNally rant at the end. I kept wating for some baseball bats to hit parked cars or some other Michael Douglas "Falling Down" action.

[Grapist]

Originally Posted by BrokenAlice

Finally caught up with this episode. Loved the McNally rant at the end. I kept wating for some baseball bats to hit parked cars or some other Michael Douglas "Falling Down" action.

Like McNally could lift a bat.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Not credibility for anything else but the statement that waiters aren't paid that badly here.

I blame the system here, but am not responsible for it. This is a system that people generally have to choose to be in. And I don't intend to suffer for it. But if I ever find that a place I eat at pays it's servers less than minimum wage, I promise to stop eating there. I'm making that promise to you, and I will keep it. It's not going to help the waiters any, but I'll do it, it's just going to deprive them of the tip they would have gotten 95% of the time, but I'll do it.

I'll won't give any more rebuttals, because I said I was done with this, and I've already sort of broken that. None of my responses now can be anything I haven't said before.

How are you not responsible for it? You are funding the system, and refusing to correct it. How do you think the system would solve the problem of assholes like you? The ONLY answer is to raise the prices. So tipping is exactly the same as if the system was fixed, but you don't see fit to do it.

The fact is you see people who are depending on you to not mistreat them, and you piss in their face because, evidently, fuck them for hoping you'd just shell out the extra money that would be on the bill anyway if everybody was a fuck like you.

And I can't believe you're so stupid as to think by not eating out you're depriving waiters of money. If restaurants suddenly stop getting customers, they'll get rid of the tip thing. If they stay open, that means people are still coming, which means people who aren't cheap assholes are fixing the system, instead of taking advantage of it.

[batlash]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Dude, you're shitty because you're supporting a shitty system by being a patron of a place that does shitty things and you don't rectify the shittiness yourself.

You're saying "If it's so bad don't work there or get paid more," but that's horseshit. Either go to a restaurant and tip the waiter properly or don't fucking go there at all. You're taking advantage of someone in a shitty situation by making them work as if you are paying them, but then you stiff them at the end of the meal.

If you're going to blame it on the system, don't go there. Those of us who are willing to tip will support the system and will pay waiters what they deserve, and they won't have to deal with your dumb ass fucking their night up.

And do you think you get any fucking credibility because you've seen ads for waiters and you considered becoming a waiter?

Actually, he's completely right - you're just being stubborn about it.

In Calfornia where he lives - the basic CASH minimum standard ( without tips ) is $ 8.00/hr, so in fact they make minimum wage there. Assuming you only go to establishments that observe the basic minimum laws, then tipping is a CUSTOMARY practice, not an essential ( based on the fact that most people won't tip at McDonald's because they "at least" get min. wage ).

That being said, if you frequent and support establishments that do NOT respect minimum wage & labour standards - could it not be said that you freely support and respect scumbag behavior by these establishments, in a sense becoming a scumbag yourself if you do so. Tipping at this point - seems more like penance than a reward.