903: What's Yours is Mine

[batlash]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

How are you not responsible for it? You are funding the system, and refusing to correct it. How do you think the system would solve the problem of assholes like you? The ONLY answer is to raise the prices. So tipping is exactly the same as if the system was fixed, but you don't see fit to do it.

The fact is you see people who are depending on you to not mistreat them, and you piss in their face because, evidently, fuck them for hoping you'd just shell out the extra money that would be on the bill anyway if everybody was a fuck like you.

And I can't believe you're so stupid as to think by not eating out you're depriving waiters of money. If restaurants suddenly stop getting customers, they'll get rid of the tip thing. If they stay open, that means people are still coming, which means people who aren't cheap assholes are fixing the system, instead of taking advantage of it.

Actually, if you read on - he stated that if he found an establishment that did "mistreat" their employees by not satisfying the minimum standards set by law, that he'd stop frequenting there as a matter of principle.

As for your point of "if people still go there, they must have corrected the problem" - you could not be more wrong. Wal-Mart has a long and documented history of not exactly always being "fair" with it's employees, and people STILL shop there, and make the corporation even more money to add to it's coffers.

[Amravanti]

Okay, I give in. I fail. I can't help myself. I'll save everyone the trouble: I am a douche who has to make himself known and has to have the last word or I'll die.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

How are you not responsible for it? You are funding the system, and refusing to correct it. How do you think the system would solve the problem of assholes like you? The ONLY answer is to raise the prices. So tipping is exactly the same as if the system was fixed, but you don't see fit to do it.

Okay, that's sound logic. I've already said that I would not patronize any place that paid it's waiters less than minimum wage, but okay, let's go on. Let's pretend I never said that for the sake of argument. Which is what you seem to have done anyway.

I'm still only just as guilty as the waiter is for choosing to operate within the system, and thusly helping it to keep going. I'm as guilty as anyone who wears Nike, knowing that they're being made in Chinese sweat shops. I'm as guilty as everyone who eats meat and poultry, knowing that the squalor and cruelty those animals are subjected to would be considered illegal and morally reprehensible if they were pets. I hope you're not wearing nikes right now you self-righteous hypocrite. Everyone who eats at a restaurant that pays less than minumum wages is helping perpetuate the system, and punishing themselves and everyone else for it.

Except in those other cases, the victims are forced into it by a system or a culture that grants them no other choice. Whereas waiters choose their lot, probably make more than I did when I was working 3 years ago, and yet somehow still deserve tips or you're an asshole.

I think teachers should be paid more too, the system grossly undervalues their service. I'll sign any petition you want, but I'm not going to slip everyone a 50 every time I go to a PTA meeting.

I understand the situation, and I do what I can in all four situations, but I'm not going to be told I have to help someone out, even when I can't personally afford it. I can help someone at my own expense, which is what tipping is, but don't tell me I have to do it or I'm an asshole. That's not fair. I do try to help waiters, I do try to do what I can to counter the system, but at the same time, I'm not going to deny myself everything I love in life for every cause, every time, and I'm not going to feel like an asshole when I allow myself to drop the ball every now and again.

I'm fine with a raise in prices. The waiter should be getting paid his wage, and tips should be additional. And in a lot of cases that's how it is, and no, I don't know the wages of ever server every where I eat, but that goes both ways.

That last phrase in your last paragraph does not follow, by the way.

Now please, answer these two questions:

Does everyone agree that there's no obligation to tip a waiter that does get paid a proper wage? And if the average of all my tipping and lack thereof evens out to within acceptable amounts, am I still an asshole?

[batlash]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

How are you not responsible for it? You are funding the system, and refusing to correct it. How do you think the system would solve the problem of assholes like you? The ONLY answer is to raise the prices. So tipping is exactly the same as if the system was fixed, but you don't see fit to do it.

Actually, the way for the system to correct itself is NOT raising prices, but the government levying heavy fines & penalties against companies that do not respect that minimum labour, health & safety standards - and close the fuckers down if they have to. As a consumer, you can complain to the government, as well as boycott such establishments until they do the right thing. Employees could report things anonymously as well.

that all being said, while I do feel for waiters - there are a HELL of a lot worse jobs to have out there, where you're treated even worse. Waiters aren't even close to being the worst treated.

[Amravanti]

Exactly, thank you.

I really should've left it alone. You have it covered while seeming like much less of an asshole, and I could've kept my dignity and my promise to drop the issue.

Ah, regrets.

[revenant]

I don't think you sound so much like an asshole. People here are just overly sensitive about the tipping thing, which is somewhat understandable since many have been in situations where tipping was their livelihood. It's a clusterfuck shitty situation that I've never heard of before while living most of my life in Canada, and steps need to be taken to change it.

[batlash]

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I think teachers should be paid more too, the system grossly undervalues their service. I'll sign any petition you want, but I'm not going to slip everyone a 50 every time I go to a PTA meeting.

I wish you had said that 10 pages ago. That's brilliant.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by batlash

Actually, if you read on - he stated that if he found an establishment that did "mistreat" their employees by not satisfying the minimum standards set by law, that he'd stop frequenting there as a matter of principle.

As for your point of "if people still go there, they must have corrected the problem" - you could not be more wrong. Wal-Mart has a long and documented history of not exactly always being "fair" with it's employees, and people STILL shop there, and make the corporation even more money to add to it's coffers.

Yes, I know he said he'd stop going on principle. But I find his principles questionable, and I directly referred to that part of his paragraph in my post. I saw he said it, and addressed it. I guess you can't read.

As far as the Wal-Mart thing goes, that's totally not applicable. Wal-Mart does not have a system that can be fixed by the customer at the time of transaction. And my point wasn't that shitty people wouldn't fill his place, my point was that, if all people like this asshole were removed, the restaurant industry would either sustain its faulty system on the people who are willing to tip consistently and properly, or it would fail and the prices would be raised. There are only good consequences from assholes quitting eating out, is the point.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Okay, that's sound logic. I've already said that I would not patronize any place that paid it's waiters less than minimum wage, but okay, let's go on. Let's pretend I never said that for the sake of argument. Which is what you seem to have done anyway.

Hey, I know you fucking said that. But you added douchey addendums about how you'd be depriving people of tips. I was clarifying that, if you did stop, there would be absolutely zero consequences. No one would miss your money.

But furthermore, you know it is customary to tip. You know the assumed amount is deducted from paychecks. The wait staff is there expecting tips. You know this, but you have no problem dicking them over simply because some part of the transaction was left optional, so you're going to hold that over their heads. You're supposed to pay it, regardless of minimum wage or not, end of story.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I'm still only just as guilty as the waiter is for choosing to operate within the system, and thusly helping it to keep going. I'm as guilty as anyone who wears Nike, knowing that they're being made in Chinese sweat shops.

WRONG.

Another example of comparing this to another matter that cannot be solved in the transaction itself. If, when you bought the shoe, you could pay additional money to cause the person who made the shoe to receive a fair wage, then that situation is applicable. I agree sweat shops are bad, and buying Nike makes people guilty, but in this situation you are more guilty. Not just as.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I'm as guilty as everyone who eats meat and poultry, knowing that the squalor and cruelty those animals are subjected to would be considered illegal and morally reprehensible if they were pets. I hope you're not wearing nikes right now you self-righteous hypocrite. Everyone who eats at a restaurant that pays less than minumum wages is helping perpetuate the system, and punishing themselves and everyone else for it.

And now you get desperate for examples and try to turn things on me.

First of all, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ANIMALS. Fucking idiot. Are humans the same as animals? Fuck animals.

Secondly, no, I don't have Nike. Kind of jumped the hypocrite gun there kind of quickly.

Again, you're protesting to paying a fee which would be included in your bill if you did not pay it. This is not the same as Wal-Mart or a sweat shop. It would be the same if everyone else was voluntarily paying the people who made their shoes the difference between their real wage and a proper wage, and some jackfuck comes in and decides, since it is not required of him, he will refuse to pay the difference.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Except in those other cases, the victims are forced into it by a system or a culture that grants them no other choice. Whereas waiters choose their lot, probably make more than I did when I was working 3 years ago, and yet somehow still deserve tips or you're an asshole.

Oh, okay, because you had a little bit of a hard stretch, everybody should be happy with getting paid that much? Why do you deserve getting paid any more now, then? You should have the difference in income between now and three years ago deducted, because you chose your lot and I hardly see how you deserve any more.

And again, waiters choose their lot because the ability to rectify the situation is in the customers' hands. They trust that people will do the right thing. Apparently not, as you've demonstrated.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I think teachers should be paid more too, the system grossly undervalues their service. I'll sign any petition you want, but I'm not going to slip everyone a 50 every time I go to a PTA meeting.

Right, because you want it dragged from your paycheck kicking and screaming.

You'll sign any petition because you'll disagree with a faulty system in theory, but when it comes down to your wallet you make nothing but selfish decisions, and you must be forced to fork over money you say people deserve.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I understand the situation, and I do what I can in all four situations, but I'm not going to be told I have to help someone out, even when I can't personally afford it. I can help someone at my own expense, which is what tipping is, but don't tell me I have to do it or I'm an asshole. That's not fair. I do try to help waiters, I do try to do what I can to counter the system, but at the same time, I'm not going to deny myself everything I love in life for every cause, every time, and I'm not going to feel like an asshole when I allow myself to drop the ball every now and again.

You're being purposefully dense here if you're trying to paint this picture as a choice between asshole or tipper. There are TWO good choices, as I've already stated, and you've chosen to ignore: go and tip, OR don't go at all.

What's more, being unable to go to a restaurant when you can't pay a tip is giving up everything you love in life? Shut the fuck up. You're a gigantic asshole.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

I'm fine with a raise in prices. The waiter should be getting paid his wage, and tips should be additional. And in a lot of cases that's how it is, and no, I don't know the wages of ever server every where I eat, but that goes both ways.

Again, you are okay with the right thing if it is forced upon you. Otherwise, fuck everybody, you have to have someone wait on you and then get paid shit.

Originally Posted by Amravanti

Does everyone agree that there's no obligation to tip a waiter that does get paid a proper wage? And if the average of all my tipping and lack thereof evens out to within acceptable amounts, am I still an asshole?

1) No, you're obligated. Fuck you. You don't know what they're getting paid, and you're just going to be coming up with bullshit reasons to not tip.
2) Yes, you're an asshole. You're justifying not tipping.

Originally Posted by batlash

Actually, the way for the system to correct itself is NOT raising prices, but the government levying heavy fines & penalties against companies that do not respect that minimum labour, health & safety standards - and close the fuckers down if they have to. As a consumer, you can complain to the government, as well as boycott such establishments until they do the right thing. Employees could report things anonymously as well.

that all being said, while I do feel for waiters - there are a HELL of a lot worse jobs to have out there, where you're treated even worse. Waiters aren't even close to being the worst treated.

Oooooh, our government has to oversee every single fucking restaurant rather than just reprinting some menus? Shut the fuck up.

Originally Posted by batlash

I wish you had said that 10 pages ago. That's brilliant.

You know, because teachers have the same lifestyle and wage as waiters. It's so totally the same. Oh yeah, and it's also extremely customary to give teachers $50s.

Oh wait.

[batlash]

Originally Posted by batlash

Actually, if you read on - he stated that if he found an establishment that did "mistreat" their employees by not satisfying the minimum standards set by law, that he'd stop frequenting there as a matter of principle.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Yes, I know he said he'd stop going on principle. But I find his principles questionable, and I directly referred to that part of his paragraph in my post. I saw he said it, and addressed it. I guess you can't read.

You never really addressed it. Like most of your arguements, you called the guy an asshole & a douche rather than have a coherent arguement to back yourself on. As for his principles - refusing to go to a restaurant that doesn't treat their staff properly is a LOT more principled than someone who would paper over such bad corporate behavior by applying the difference yourself. Your method just rewards and encourages such bad behavior by the establishment to continue.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

As far as the Wal-Mart thing goes, that's totally not applicable. Wal-Mart does not have a system that can be fixed by the customer at the time of transaction. And my point wasn't that shitty people wouldn't fill his place, my point was that, if all people like this asshole were removed, the restaurant industry would either sustain its faulty system on the people who are willing to tip consistently and properly, or it would fail and the prices would be raised. There are only good consequences from assholes quitting eating out, is the point.

It's actually completely appliceable. Wal-Mart does have a system that can be fixed by the consumer - STOP FUCKING SHOPPING THERE - see - very simple. If enough people stop shopping there because they won't accept such practices, bad behaving companies will be forced to address such issues and correct their actions.

About 5 years ago in Montreal, SEARS removed all traces of english from in-store signage and would only post french ones ( despite being allowed by law if used together with a few adjustments ). People protested and boycotted SEARS on this issue, and guess what - they CORRECTED the problem rather than lose sales and clients.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

But furthermore, you know it is customary to tip. You know the assumed amount is deducted from paychecks. The wait staff is there expecting tips. You know this, but you have no problem dicking them over simply because some part of the transaction was left optional, so you're going to hold that over their heads. You're supposed to pay it, regardless of minimum wage or not, end of story.

There's a big difference in a customary practice and a required practice. Lets assume minimum wage laws are respected & applied to the wait staff. In that case CUSTOM dictates that it should be paid... not that it's required. If the service is really bad in this case - and is clearly due to the server, should bad performance of one's job be rewarded just because it's custom?

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Another example of comparing this to another matter that cannot be solved in the transaction itself. If, when you bought the shoe, you could pay additional money to cause the person who made the shoe to receive a fair wage, then that situation is applicable. I agree sweat shops are bad, and buying Nike makes people guilty, but in this situation you are more guilty. Not just as.

You're actually MORE guilty by purchasing the NIKES because you're supporting the behavior and not contributing to correcting it.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Again, you're protesting to paying a fee which would be included in your bill if you did not pay it. This is not the same as Wal-Mart or a sweat shop. It would be the same if everyone else was voluntarily paying the people who made their shoes the difference between their real wage and a proper wage, and some jackfuck comes in and decides, since it is not required of him, he will refuse to pay the difference.

Actually your arguement the whole time has been we should subsidize waiters for the possible losses they endure to bad employment conditions because their employers won't. By your own arguement, every time we buy a pair of Nikes - we should send a check to cover the difference in wages to some 11 year old kid in some 3rd World Country.

Originally Posted by batlash

Actually, the way for the system to correct itself is NOT raising prices, but the government levying heavy fines & penalties against companies that do not respect that minimum labour, health & safety standards - and close the fuckers down if they have to.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Oooooh, our government has to oversee every single fucking restaurant rather than just reprinting some menus? Shut the fuck up.

ACTUALLY - that's the government's job - to make sure that employees are treated fairly. That's why they have a labour standards act.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by batlash

You never really addressed it. Like most of your arguements, you called the guy an asshole & a douche rather than have a coherent arguement to back yourself on. As for his principles - refusing to go to a restaurant that doesn't treat their staff properly is a LOT more principled than someone who would paper over such bad corporate behavior by applying the difference yourself. Your method just rewards and encourages such bad behavior by the establishment to continue.

What? Paying someone a proper wage is worse than not paying it because they system won't force him to do so? Get your skewed views the fuck out of here.

What's more, it's usually when people start running out of good rebuttal points when they start criticizing the language in a post. Yeah, my posts are completely incoherent. Forget the fact that you just had a ton of different counterpoints. Did you invent the points you were responding to? Because we all know mine were unreadable. It's a scientific fact the words douche and asshole cannot exist in understandable sentences.

Originally Posted by batlash

It's actually completely appliceable. Wal-Mart does have a system that can be fixed by the consumer - STOP FUCKING SHOPPING THERE - see - very simple. If enough people stop shopping there because they won't accept such practices, bad behaving companies will be forced to address such issues and correct their actions.

And still you desperately try to shoehorn that comparison in. The reason the solution to Wal-Mart is to stop shopping there is because you cannot solve it at the time of transaction. If you could, that would be the answer.

Originally Posted by batlash

About 5 years ago in Montreal, SEARS removed all traces of english from in-store signage and would only post french ones ( despite being allowed by law if used together with a few adjustments ). People protested and boycotted SEARS on this issue, and guess what - they CORRECTED the problem rather than lose sales and clients.

Okay? You seem to think I'm not agreeing that jackass shouldn't go to restaurants. I've already said he should stop. He's justifying going and not tipping. In fact, I'm saying he should stop going entirely rather than by somehow magically knowing everybody's pay rate and making a decision accordingly.

And anyone who tips doesn't have to stop going because there isn't a problem for them. The only people who care are assholes who like to stiff waiters.

Originally Posted by batlash

There's a big difference in a customary practice and a required practice. Lets assume minimum wage laws are respected & applied to the wait staff. In that case CUSTOM dictates that it should be paid... not that it's required. If the service is really bad in this case - and is clearly due to the server, should bad performance of one's job be rewarded just because it's custom?

If this

Originally Posted by batlash

You're actually MORE guilty by purchasing the NIKES because you're supporting the behavior and not contributing to correcting it.

What? By going to restaurants and not tipping, he's supporting the behavior (the businesses don't give a fuck if he tips), and he's not contributing to correct it, AND he had a clear opportunity to make the entire thing right and he didn't.

Originally Posted by batlash

Actually your arguement the whole time has been we should subsidize waiters for the possible losses they endure to bad employment conditions because their employers won't. By your own arguement, every time we buy a pair of Nikes - we should send a check to cover the difference in wages to some 11 year old kid in some 3rd World Country.

If the child is RIGHT THERE at the time of transaction, and you watch him making the shoe, yes. OR you shouldn't buy the shoes at all. You're defending a person who says it's okay to buy the shoes but not pay the difference. You seem to disagree with his sentiment, and yet you're still arguing with me.

Originally Posted by batlash

ACTUALLY - that's the government's job - to make sure that employees are treated fairly. That's why they have a labour standards act.

How is not getting rid of tipping and letting people still get fucked over by motherfucker over there a solution? The government still expects that a waiter receives tips, and deducts for it, and asshole still is justifying not tipping because the system doesn't force him to pay more.

Don't try to pretend like 90% of restaurants are paying their waiters illegally low amounts. The system is fucked. It's not the case that the law is fine and people are disobeying it. Tipping fixes it, not tipping fucks it up more. These are the facts.

[Eightball]

Okay a new fresh persepective.

Government, and customers have NO obligation to tip a waiter for their service. The whole principle behind tipping is voluntary. The risk behind a tip is that a waiter might get a substancial tip after serving a party, or may not get anything. The restaurant hedges its risk by charging a set price for its services to the customer (i.e. providing a prepared meal), which is delivered by the waiter who actually acts as a second business in the process. The only thing the government should do here is turn a blind eye to taxing the the waiter, and to make sure the restaurant owner isn't beating the shit out of the waiter after hours.. Some places in Europe add a SET Tip to the final bill (18 percent or something like that), and most people changed that since waiters didn't want to work in a place that only guaranteed them and 18% tip.

SO: to recap....

Government has NO obligation to enforce the business to pay the waiter a steady amount of money for services in comparison to the business' other staff.
The Business has NO obligation to pay the waiter a high wage due to the fact that the waiter is volunteering to take the risk of tips.
The customer has NO obligation to give anything above and beyond for a meal's cost as described on the bill (AKA the written invoice to cover costs of service and legal TAX)
and... the most important thing here that most of you forget.
The waiter has NO obligation to have to work in that shitty condition. He/she is free to fuck off and go do something else at any given time.

So to Suma Sumaria

If you're working as a waiter, and the work is too hard and the pay is too small... GO DO SOMETHING ELSE stupid. Construction workers don't do their job for 5.00 an hour. Doctors won't operate on people all year long for a guaranteed 15,000 salary. Why are you taking it up the perverbial ass then? If enough waiters walk out, the system will adopt new policy to get more waiters to come back to the waitering business. And if the business doesn't adapt, then no one gave a shit about your job or your tipping situation anyway. But don't worry, most people won't get up and get their own food I'm pretty sure you're safe.

So in Suma Suma Sumaria

Quit bitching, and feeling entitled to alot of tips. And go get me another fork.

(PS. I always tip very well, but not because I feel I have to.)