God Hates Fags

[BrownEyedBtch]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

Of course i am. But i like spooky's views. I dont know why he has to turn to assault mode so quickly, though.

Using one of his points: he made the example of an atheist person forcing her children to be outside from christmas, easter, etc.

it sounds strange to me. I was raised strictly catholic and i have awful memories of any religious holiday, exactly because both my parents were extremely religious. Christmas was all about going to never-ending mass prayers, same with easter. And in both the occasions, there was even more strict discipline and unhappiness. I started having fun when i left my family, and separated religion and activities that are usually linked to it.

If and when i'll have kids, even if i'm an atheist i will deinitely let them celebrate everything they want. even Halloween, which the pope has called a "disgusting pagan celebration". I guess that things boil down to how black your own heart is and how much you're going to take it out on your kids, either through religion or atheism.

Either that or i'm just an asshole piece of shit who should not ever breed. Oh well.

I think kids believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. doesn't do any harm to kids because kids like make believe, and they like fantasy worlds. These things are on their level. As kids get older, they learn these things are the work of their parents who were just trying to make their childhood special. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving kids something fun to believe in as children. It brings them joy and excitement. Few parents can resist the look their children get on their faces on Christmas morning when they see what "Santa" brought for them. A healthy imagination is a blessing.

I was not raised a hardcore religious person, and always had my creativity nurtured. I don't know what it means to spend my life in church because my mother always tried to expose us to our options and let us decide which one we wanted to explore. That's where my open-mindedness comes from. I hope to pass that open-mindedness along to my children someday. She did a good job of showing us what options there were, what each option had to offer, and potential consequences and benefits of each option. I love not being a judgmental person. I am not an angry person.

And for the record, I say it again: I do not object to parents teaching their kids about religion. I object to teaching belief as fact and judging others who do not share your beliefs.

I stop reading Spooky's points as soon as he decides someone could not possibly be intelligent enough to agree with him, and I find that unfortunate. I see a lot of his points, but because I don't worship everything he says, I am the idiot. If that's how he wants to live his life, fine. As I wrote to him, I am not one who needs to judge or win to be satisfied.

[Station]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

Oh that still could work. Listening to Maron's podcast has made my "people are slaves and i'm dissatisfied and angry" factor up to 11.

If you want to see it under that angle, religion, atheism, politics or even sports are all ways to give people a safe way to have mind-numbing and re-assuring rituals. I think that, for a lot of people, even the KATG community has that edge to it. That's why the whole "cult" thing that came out when Mike did the branding was funny but not so far from the truth. Some listeners feel void and broken, betrayed by usual groups, and they find a shelter in the KATG community, they find somebody that tells them ways to think and confront day to day issues.

It's weird, but if you strip the issue to bare bones, KATG has aspects of an organized religion with leaders (two), evil (Dane Cook and smug assholes), rituals (the meetups), prayers and catchphrases. Even clothing.

I think that the show gives the same type of satisfaction to some that praying and saying "god hates whatever" gives to others.

It's borderline impossible to be absolutely off of any form of mass ritual. It's something that drives you to depression, even if you think that you have an iron will.

Tough one. BTW, babies arent innocent.

Thats a good example. To that extent, I also don't think that mass groups or hive minds or whatever you want to call them are inherently evil. On some level they all get you to accept something while denying something else. Sports for example get you to accept one team and rival another. Where i have a problem is, something like sports is contained. Lets say I like the steelers and someone else likes the eagles, we can disagree on that point but his/her liking of the eagles holds no bearing on me liking the steelers or on anything else in my life. Furthermore, the owners of each team would rather we not get rid of one or the other, otherwise they would no longer have that rivalry to market. The difference in Mega Church mentality or the tea party mentality is that, though that rivalry exists, it seeks to fundamentally alter not only another persons belief system, but to gain control of aspects outside of that belief system and force everyone else to conform to their particular "hive". I think a lot of these groups are headed by a small group of individuals that have a specific purpose in mind and the followers are to blind to see that in some cases they are being manipulated to go against what is often their own self interest.

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by BrownEyedBtch

And for the record, I say it again: I do not object to parents teaching their kids about religion. I object to teaching belief as fact and judging others who do not share your beliefs.

That's perfectly fair, i just think it's very hard to teach belief, especially religious belief, without even a tiny piece of judgement in it. It's part of the belief system. See, my father was a weirdo, but my mother thinks to have taught me "what was good and evil" within my catholic upbringing. It was part of the religion to think there was evil out there. I guess it's supposed to teach kids what kind of bad stuff they have to stay away from, but in the end it makes you judgemental. If i ever told any memeber of my family that i know gay people, let alone that i have had and still have an active and non-conformist sex life, that would hurt them as much as a crime. And a a lot of them arenty bad or judgemental people, and they're actually nice.

Originally Posted by Station

Thats a good example. To that extent, I also don't think that mass groups or hive minds or whatever you want to call them are inherently evil.

No, hive minds are not inherently evil. But it's a natural instinct of humans to use things for greedy, destructive or self satisfying purposes. So any tool that can control a group can easily be used to damage someone else. It's a rogh example, but take the Nick Starr case. He deserved all the shit he got, but dont you find a bit, let's say creepy, that the right moment Keith was insulted by the man, a good number of people started the counterstrike? It just showed the type of power you get with a massive following. The gratification that any individual gets from being part of a group that accepts them and shelters them can turn even the sweetest person into a potential aggressor, if called for. And anyone, even the nicest of the nicest, have a destructive side in them, that can be easily controlled.

Sorry if i yap too much. I'm having some tough issues lately and this is helping me keeping my brain awake and avoid depression rebounds..

[spooky]

For the record, I am simply intolerant of BrownEyedBtch. I don't even have a fuse with her based entirely on her own past behavior, bias, and resistance to even acknowledging the views of others. Further, she has sought me out as a target in the past, so I now assume the attack position when she wanders into a thread with me. She is a dog that bites, not a victim like she wants to be. One of the quotes in my sig is there because of her.

This is an interesting thread, my apologies for not explaining my position on that specific forum member.

[Junkenstein]

I kinda got that, but i always thought that your posts in this type of threads are particularly interesting, since you're a non-conformist thinker and not afraid of apppearing verbose to send your point home. Which is always fodder for interesting conversation, i guess.

So it's a bit of a pity when the argument degenerates into fighting because of personal feuds. that's all i meant. I have no problem restarting the yapping. I'm a debate-junkie in life too.

[spooky]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

No, hive minds are not inherently evil. But it's a natural instinct of humans to use things for greedy, destructive or self satisfying purposes. So any tool that can control a group can easily be used to damage someone else. It's a rough example, but take the Nick Starr case. He deserved all the shit he got, but dont you find a bit, let's say creepy, that the right moment Keith was insulted by the man, a good number of people started the counterstrike? It just showed the type of power you get with a massive following. The gratification that any individual gets from being part of a group that accepts them and shelters them can turn even the sweetest person into a potential aggressor, if called for. And anyone, even the nicest of the nicest, have a destructive side in them, that can be easily controlled.

People are happiest when working together towards a goal, it is an evolutionary tick we developed(a habit I try to break in myself). It's what allowed us to function and grow from tribes to villages to societies. It's also responsible for war, genocide, and numerous other atrocities, but according to nature, the ends justify the means.

What I find remarkable about western thinking, America in particular, is this notion of individualism, placing so much value on an individual life, it does seem to run contrary to evolution. While our own morals(beliefs we have been taught) seem to point to the righteousness of that notion, we do still have these sheep like tendencies. (And if nature is the true judge of right and wrong, would a sense of individual thought be considered evil? Does nature/evolution support the idea of organized religion over individual atheism?)

Anyway, I am pleased someone else notices, I have caught lots and lots of shit for pointing it out here in the forums, I feel much more comfortable running with a herd, regardless of how small.

Oh, the warm at ease feeling of not being alone in your beliefs. baaaaah!

[BrownEyedBtch]

Originally Posted by spooky

For the record, I am simply intolerant of BrownEyedBtch. I don't even have a fuse with her based entirely on her own past behavior, bias, and resistance to even acknowledging the views of others. Further, she has sought me out as a target in the past, so I now assume the attack position when she wanders into a thread with me. She is a dog that bites, not a victim like she wants to be. One of the quotes in my sig is there because of her.

This is an interesting thread, my apologies for not explaining my position on that specific forum member.

Hahahahahaha!!! this is one of the funniest things I have read in so long, mostly because it is so untrue! I thought for a second about asking you to prove it, but honestly, I don't really care for what you think is a representation of my closed-mindedness to the views of others, because I know they would not be indicative of me at all. You have chosen to read a select few posts by me and decided from them I am an island unto myself. Again, you cannot be more wrong. I see all viewpoints and try to decipher meaning from them. I have learned more from people who have opposing viewpoints than I have from those with supporting viewpoints. I have not lived as many people here have, so the things I read are eye-opening experiences for me and I am greatful for them. I think about some of the things I read when I log off at times. You choose not to see that, and quite frankly, that is your loss. I have read several of your posts in varying threads and have appreciated and agreed with many of your points, but the moment you decide to look down your nose at anyone, as you do with the forum members in general, your points are lost, as you just go back to being a jerk. As you are not an influence in my life, I choose not to be concerned with what you think of me.

Sorry Junkenstein, I too was looking forward to healthy conversation. I hope to have one with you, since Spooky will choose never to have one with me. I am all for what others have to offer.

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by spooky

(And if nature is the true judge of right and wrong, would a sense of individual thought be considered evil? Does nature/evolution support the idea of organized religion over individual atheism?)

Anyway, I am pleased someone else notices, I have caught lots and lots of shit for pointing it out here in the forums, I feel much more comfortable running with a herd, regardless of how small.

Oh, the warm at ease feeling of not being alone in your beliefs. baaaaah!

I think that a balance between herd-dependency/individual satisfaction coupled with an intense inherent cruelty is what nature gave to mankind to have its own 15 minutes in the evolution path. And if everything works as it has usually worked in the bigger schemes, it could be eventually the same tools that will annihilate mankind.

All living species have their own edge, some die because that edge doesnt adapt to their surroundings anymore, or because the new kids on the block have a better ones. Eventually our time will come and we will self-annihilate without even noticing, completely enraptured by our masturbatory need to find meanings where there arent any, arguing pointlessly, and kill each other for the sheer thrill of it (because somehow it's obvious that all forms of money or value will eventually turn out to be meaningless). And that will be the time where nature will give place to somethging else.

Ah the warm feeling of being a yapping sanctimounious prick... Yada Yada Yada...

[spooky]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

I think that a balance between herd-dependency/individual satisfaction coupled with an intense inherent cruelty is what nature gave to mankind to have its own 15 minutes in the evolution path. And if everything works as it has usually worked in the bigger schemes, it could be eventually the same tools that will annihilate mankind.

All living species have their own edge, some die because that edge doesnt adapt to their surroundings anymore, or because the new kids on the block have a better ones. Eventually our time will come and we will self-annihilate without even noticing, completely enraptured by our masturbatory need to find meanings where there arent any, arguing pointlessly, and kill each other for the sheer thrill of it (because somehow it's obvious that all forms of money or value will eventually turn out to be meaningless). And that will be the time where nature will give place to somethging else.

Ah the warm feeling of being a yapping sanctimounious prick... Yada Yada Yada...

It's possible, but not probable in my mind.

Thinking about us becoming extinct by our own hand is wrapped around our own inherent ego, I doubt very seriously that we will ever have that kind of power.

For millions, if not billions of years, we have been evolving to reach where we are today. To think that we suddenly have the ability to render our own complete annihilation, which I admit with things like nuclear technology is within the realm of possibilities, but I think thoughts like that are why we also used to think the universe revolved around the earth.

I think a far more likely scenario is, we continue to branch off, diversity increases exponentially, and we all become something else. Space travel may make us the cockroaches of the universe, and given time, each planet being it's own Galapagos, we may become very different. Genetic manipulation will likely aid in our rapid evolution, it is possible that we may one day be able to selectively choose our own genetic destiny, custom manufactured for whatever environment we wind up in. With the ability to, within a single generation(or who knows, maybe within a single lifespan), evolve ourselves in any direction we choose, coupled with the ability to travel to any isolated locale within the local universe, I imagine we will only continue Nature's manifest destiny. We will continue the pattern established by evolution, as will all things, at an ever increasing rate until we attain complete adaptability/sustainability/stability.

In my thinking, that is the more probable scenario.

Originally Posted by BrownEyedBtch

Hahahahahaha!!! this is one of the funniest things I have read in so long, mostly because it is so untrue! I thought for a second about asking you to prove it, but honestly, I don't really care for what you think is a representation of my closed-mindedness to the views of others, because I know they would not be indicative of me at all.

Proof is in my signature, as I said. What you are doing there is the same illogical head in the sand coping method I complain of about you. You will only see what you want to see, and will always believe it is the only truth, hence the hilarious oxymorons I used before when I called you "rigidly open minded", and claimed you to be a good person(but only by your own standards). You actually took those as compliments, stunningly oblivious as it makes you. As I said, as you have once again proven, talking to you falls on deaf ears.

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by spooky

For millions, if not billions of years, we have been evolving to reach where we are today. To think that we suddenly have the ability to render our own complete annihilation, which I admit with things like nuclear technology is within the realm of possibilities, but I think thoughts like that are why we also used to think the universe revolved around the earth.

I think a far more likely scenario is, we continue to branch off, diversity increases exponentially, and we all become something else. Space travel may make us the cockroaches of the universe, and given time, each planet being it's own Galapagos, we may become very different. Genetic manipulation will likely aid in our rapid evolution, it is possible that we may one day be able to selectively choose our own genetic destiny, custom manufactured for whatever environment we wind up in. With the ability to, within a single generation(or who knows, maybe within a single lifespan), evolve ourselves in any direction we choose, coupled with the ability to travel to any isolated locale within the local universe, I imagine we will only continue Nature's manifest destiny. We will continue the pattern established by evolution, as will all things, at an ever increasing rate until we attain complete adaptability/sustainability/stability.

In my thinking, that is the more probable scenario.

I wasnt thinking about an abrupt end at our own hands, like in the usual sci-fi apocalyptic scenarios. I agree that's kind of presumptuous.

I think that there's the possibility (of course it's only a hypothesis) of mankind dying of sheer apathy. On a large scale, mankind has made discoveries, turned a lot of obstacles upside down and manipulated the realm of possibilities. But i also feel that we're driving ourselves in a state of staleness that's bringing us to an accelerated aging and extinction. We are techonology dependent, filled with sickness bith physical and mental (there's litterally thousands of mental issues that sounds more like excuses for our lack of abilities than actual curable problems), reproducing less and less out of insecurity, self obsessed, self absorbed and fixated on issues that really do not bring us anywhere.

We're turning into a bunch of increasingly aging sterile cripples who will disappear out of uselessness. The great science advancements are there and they could help us evolve, but they're being used for the wrong reasons. dont you see as really probable that genetic manipulation will simply be used to age slower or be more attractive, instead of helping us evolve into beings that can survive better?

LAST MINUTE ADD: On the issue of Hive Minds and her-like worship. On a movie website, the picture about Jacko rehearsal footage was being presented. I shit you not, some posts in the debate had variations on this phrase "Keep not believing in Michael's greatness. Keep your silly beliefs about a ZOMBI JEW CARPENTER" (that last one is not bad, i have to admit).
If that isnt a proof that even a pop star can create mass worshipping near to fanatism, and also a good point about the increasing uselessness of peoiple, i dont know what is.