Stimilus or not

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by picard102

No, the best quality at the best price should be top concern. American vehicles don't fall under either of those banners, and would be a waste of money to purchase. The bailout is to help them get into a position were they can be seen as one or both of those things.

Exactly. Americans blindly supporting a culture of gas inefficiency and shitty manufacturing has only hurt the country, not helped it.

[da_ticklah]

Originally Posted by picard102

No, the best quality at the best price should be top concern. American vehicles don't fall under either of those banners, and would be a waste of money to purchase. The bailout is to help them get into a position were they can be seen as one or both of those things.


Toyota employees 142,000 people in the US. It's also dangerous to start making policy on where you can buy goods, as it will lead into trade wars; and as we all know, America doesn't produce much of anything people consume within it's own borders.

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

Exactly. Americans blindly supporting a culture of gas inefficiency and shitty manufacturing has only hurt the country, not helped it.

Hey hey hey I'm only talking about the provisions to buy Hybrids not all cars that the US govt buys; shitty manufacturing sure but if you look at some of the newer GM's they are trying to get better (Saturn Aura, Chevy Malibu, Buick LaCrosse). Compare any of those to their mid 90's counterparts and the quality improvement at a surface glance and having had them as a rental is striking. They now need to fight off the stigma that they created around making shitty cars and that never happens if they stay on the lot collecting dust.

Americans as a people buy enough Toyota's and Honda's for price efficiency quality and overall value reasons we know this. To your point of the 142k employed by Toyota none of those hybrids are assembled in an American plant, should that change I'll back off my statement. All I am saying is if the American tax payer is going to fund our govt buying hybrids (not that I think we should) we should at least buy the American made ones. Hopefully we get cash flowing into the big 3 from selling cars not just taking handouts from citizens.

To be honest I'd be for $15,000 tax credit offered to any US tax payer that buys a car made in America, with maybe a bump down to $10,000 for things like Saab and Volvo that while owned by GM and Ford are made overseas. If the American Cars still suck think of all the mechanics we just put to work. Git 'R Done!!

I'm not an economist I just want to understand how giving billions to companies and then not setting up a way to get them profitable at their core business fixes anything.

[Cretaceous Bob]

I'm not convinced hybrid is the way to go. Adam Carolla had a good point on his show a couple weeks back: hybrids don't get good enough gas efficiency to warrant their cost. He cited a Honda from the '80s that had a conventional gas powered engine that got almost 50 mpg, and he said our time would be better spent building cars like that again rather than hybrids.

Originally Posted by da_ticklah

I'm not an economist I just want to understand how giving billions to companies and then not setting up a way to get them profitable at their core business fixes anything.

I do agree that propping up a failure without stipulations isn't the best way to go.

[Zim]

Fuck the stimulus package. I flat out resent the idea that taxes I have paid and (because of borrowing) will pay in the future are going to assist failing businesses and phoney science. You want to stimulate the econonmy? Take the dollar amount agreed on, divide by every citizen in the US legally, and give them that amount on a debit card usuable only for the purchase of investment vehicles and with a 6 month time limit. Let Americans decide what they want to invest in and in so doing, give the PEOPLE a stake in those companies. The capitalization would put those companies in a position to hire and expand as well.

[Grapist]

Originally Posted by theomne

There are roughly 308 million people in the US, how about killing just one of these items and shooting each of us a check for a cool million? I know I would be out spending a portion to do my part in stimulating the economy! Not to mention paying off all of my debt. That would teach the banks, everybody pays off all that high interest debt... I'm no economist (obviously) but I could sure use some extra cash in my pocket, certainly more than that piddling 1200 from last year.

Yep, and in no time at all we will be printing 10,000 dollar bills to buy gas with. Inflation, it's real.

[picard102]

Originally Posted by da_ticklah

I'm not an economist I just want to understand how giving billions to companies and then not setting up a way to get them profitable at their core business fixes anything.

Didn't they give them a list of things they wanted to see changed, and required a business plan before giving them the money?

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by picard102

Didn't they give them a list of things they wanted to see changed, and required a business plan before giving them the money?

Who? Our car companies? As far as I know, Bush handed the car companies free money from the $750 billion Congress handed him with zero requirements attached.

Whether or not this new plan has stipulations, however, I have no idea.

[Forbin]

Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob

I'm not convinced hybrid is the way to go. Adam Carolla had a good point on his show a couple weeks back: hybrids don't get good enough gas efficiency to warrant their cost. He cited a Honda from the '80s that had a conventional gas powered engine that got almost 50 mpg, and he said our time would be better spent building cars like that again rather than hybrids.

I remember seeing a graph some time ago that showed MPG of the average car sold in USA, Japan and Europe. It showed that US MPG had plataued in the early 80s whereas in Japan it was assymtotically approaching 50mpg. Europe was lagging behind Japan but headed in the same direction.

I'm not entirely sure what causes this trend but since you can buy cars designed all arround the world in each of these three places, I can only assume it's market driven. It strikes me that Americans, during the 90s, wanted the improovements in technology to give them bigger and more powerful cars without making too much of a dent in milage whereas in Japan and Europe performance hasn't increased anywhere near as much but cars have gotten more efficient.

What has me wondering is whether the car companies, not just the American ones, are serious about making more efficeint cars or if it's just marketting because certainly the MPGs that they're advertising are still low by European and Japanese standards, possibly because they don't think that Americans really want to sacrific power in favour of efficiency.

That's just me wondering though, I have no evidence to back up my strange meandering logic.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by Forbin

What has me wondering is whether the car companies, not just the American ones, are serious about making more efficeint cars or if it's just marketting because certainly the MPGs that their advertising are still low by European and Japanese standards, possibly because they don't think that Americans really want to sacrific power in favour of efficiency.

I think this is absolutely right. And the American people don't really want efficiency.

Everyone I heard bitching about gas efficiency shut up when gas prices dropped. I'm still seeing rich white women getting enormous SUVs bought for them by their rich husbands, and I'm still seeing lower-to-middle-class ethnic people putting rims and ridiculous paintjobs on their shitty SUVs and trucks. Americans don't give a shit.

[theomne]

Originally Posted by Grapist

Yep, and in no time at all we will be printing 10,000 dollar bills to buy gas with. Inflation, it's real.

good point. like i said, i'm no economist, i think i slept through an economics class in high school. oh wells. it just bothers me that all this money comes from our tax dollars but we have no say on how it is spent. the politicians are so out of touch with the average american you know that money will never end up where it should be.