2125: Don't Look Down

[Keith]

I'm saying it seems like you don't know (adult) incest is already illegal.

[Sparrow]

doesn't change my feelings about state intrusion on grown up sex.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

we investigate if and when that person presses assault charges.

just because you /can/ shit on someone for sexual pleasure, doesn't mean it's your thing or that knowing about it will cause you to do it. you're being goofy, you don't have to have in depth conversations with your kids about the nuances of deeply taboo fetishism.

Child Sexual Abuse & Grooming | Pandora's Project

i disagree that it is out and out non-consensual.

That is INCREDIBLY FUCKING STUPID. The entire point about sexual abuse is that it's a crime that tends to be hidden due to, among other things, shame and social pressure. The notion that we should wait until a child being groomed to have sex with an adult recognizes that it's wrong means we're going to have a heck of a lot more abuse.

Again, how do parent/child sexual dynamics change the minute sex between them once the kid turns 18 (or 16 or whatever age you somehow think that turns okay) is legal? How about step-parents? Adopted kids? Nieces and nephews? All of a sudden, the "cool aunt" who dispenses sexual wisdom becomes a potential suspect.

The fact is, the biggest sign of grooming is actual sexual abuse. The minute you define down that abuse as decriminalized/legal is the minute that behavior becomes more common.

But that's all tangential. Your disagreement that it is out and out non-consensual is unconvincing. Our society recognizes that consent is only possible within certain parameters and that a blatantly imbalanced power dynamic (adult/child, guard/prisoner, father/daughter, etc.) defies those parameters. It is fundamentally impossible to have consensual sex under those circumstances.

So, to be clear, why do you think a father having sex with his 16-year old daughter is okay? What about the inherent power dynamics of that situation do you think makes that fine as opposed to, say, a prison guard having sex with a prisoner? Because you're not making your case, you're just saying you disagree. It's all "I believe in xyz...", but you've left out the "because."

Please elaborate, because at this point it's just you going in circles saying you don't want people thrown in jail for consensual sex and the rest of us telling you why the sex isn't consensual in the first place.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

doesn't change my feelings about state intrusion on grown up sex.

To be clear, what is your definition of "grown up sex"? This is the sticking point. If you believe that consent is merely getting a "yes" from someone, no matter the power dynamic, then you really need to recognize that you hold a fundamentally different definition of grown up sex than the rest of the society you live in. You can keep beating that drum, but you're in the corner with guys who think that girls who are passed-out drunk can give consent.

Your views here never, ever account for power dynamics as they pertain to sexual conduct, and that's one of the linchpins of our social and legal understanding of consent. You're sitting here with two lines and calling it a triangle, but without that third line, people are going to look at you funny, and for good reason.

[Sparrow]

adult fathers are not the authority over their adult daughters. prison guards are direct authority, so are teachers, and parents to children. to presume an adult's dad is their keeper in this manner is sexist as fook.

i have said until i'm blue in the face about child--and adult--exploitation, coercion, grooming, trafficking et al being rightfully criminal.

[Scumhook]

I bet Dave's parents are related by more than just marriage...

[Sparrow]

that really makes me hot. if he still wears a diaper i'm gonna cum all over my keyboard.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

adult fathers are not the authority over their adult daughters. prison guards are direct authority, so are teachers, and parents to children. to presume an adult's dad is their keeper in this manner is sexist as fook.

i have said until i'm blue in the face about child--and adult--exploitation, coercion, grooming, trafficking et al being rightfully criminal.

Father and son, then, if that floats your boat, but direct authority isn't the only power dynamic. Even so, it's worth noting that parents can re-obtain direct authority over their kids for a variety of reasons (usually incapacitation of some type), and that possibility hovers over an adult-child relationship after a child turns 18.

A direct familial bond is a relationship in which the dynamics do not allow for consent. Parents have the task of raising and shaping their kids' lives; even when they don't do a very good job, they have tremendous influence, the kind of influence that affords significant power over another. They have tremendous authority, far beyond any other person in that person's life, and our society grants them that authority. That type of authority creates lasting effects in a relationship dynamic long after a child turns 18, and that is (in many cases) a good thing. As a society, we grant parents such authority within rules to foster generations of adults who know how to live in the world, but that authority has consequences.

Perhaps the single most minor consequence is that YOU CAN'T FUCK YOUR KID. The lasting power dynamic of familial authority makes it impossible for children to consent to sex with parents.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

that really makes me hot. if he still wears a diaper i'm gonna cum all over my keyboard.

Enjoy, just don't get your father involved.

[Sparrow]

meh. i'm not really into that.