2161: She's Always a Woman

[ImStillToni]

Slightly off topic, but Amy was even more hilarious this time around. I missed the beginning live and now that I'm listening, the banter between you three is hilarious.

Amy really wasn't high? Or drunk? She just talks so laid back (do not recall her sounding like this last time), it made me laugh even harder.

Ok, yall can get back to it then

[Eric M]

It really is a shitty situation. There is no transgender leauge of MMA so there really is no place for this person. You can look at 100 fitness models/mma fighter women and you will never see shoulders and traps like this Fallon Fox has. Those developed before she decided to transition. It's just an unfair fight.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Eric M

It really is a shitty situation. There is no transgender leauge of MMA so there really is no place for this person. You can look at 100 fitness models/mma fighter women and you will never see shoulders and traps like this Fallon Fox has. Those developed before she decided to transition. It's just an unfair fight.

It also seems tough because of the timing of transition/length of time since transitioning/degree of transition is important here. In the same way that there's natural variation among people, there's natural variation about the effects of transition. Some people will see more bone density loss transitioning to female, and others won't. Ditto for things like muscle loss. It's really difficult to set an acceptable level there from a competitive standpoint.

I mean, how much muscle loss would be acceptable? 10%? 20%? How would one even gauge that? It's not as though trans athletes are getting in-depth measurements of muscle mass and bone density before and after transition.

And none of this considers people who don't identify as either gender. Can a genderfluid person compete in both men's and women's divisions at their discretion?

The competitive framework of organized women's sports rests on the underlying principle that women should not have to compete with people who went through puberty with male sex organs. I knew women in college who were competitive cross country runners, some of the best in D1 NCAA competition. Their times were comparable to guys on my high school team. In a world where these women have to compete against guys for training time, coaching and resources, none of them would have been able to do so. Instead, these were scholarship athletes who got to travel the country, compete and hone their skills to achieve the fastest times they could.

Our athletic norms and competitions hinge on a biological rather than social construction of gender. That may seem antiquated, but biological norms aren't just enforced at the gender level. Individuals can't even take legal steroids if they want to compete in most competitions due to the desire to preserve the spirit of these endeavors. That's a tough, inherently exclusionary proposition for lots of people, including some trans athletes.

That said, I just don't see a viable workaround at present. The social construction of gender runs into a really harsh reality when longer legs and thinner hips confer real, major advantages that can't be taken away without surgical procedures that do not yet exist.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

And none of this considers people who don't identify as either gender. Can a genderfluid person compete in both men's and women's divisions at their discretion?

Now THAT'S the way to play it.

"After coincidentally looking at my record, it turns out I find the women's league a better fit for me after all."

[marykae]

What about testing every female athlete's bone density, t level, and basing divisions on that, as well as weight?

While the WFTDA's trans policy is not perfect for derby (I believe we should be more inclusive), it's a great deal better than most sports.

It states that you only need to provide proof of hormone levels if requested. Technically, this means cis women could be called on to do the same.

I acknowledge that this is tough, but I stand by my statement that trans women are women and should be able to compete with other women.

The MRDA has a beautiful trans gender policy that includes gender fluid skaters. Most male, and many female roller derby leagues take similar approaches for their non sanctioned play, but, as mentioned above the WFTDA is a little more exclusive.

[Bucho]

Originally Posted by Eric M

You can look at 100 fitness models/mma fighter women and you will never see shoulders and traps like this Fallon Fox has.

You will if one of those 100 is the only woman to beat Gina Carano, Cristane Justino ...




















CAVEAT!: Justino was later popped for steroids.

[Professor Subterfuge]

anyone know the show where keith talks with neighbor who keeps saying caveat

[ghauck]

You have to tell us, where was the first place you put your new appendage! Apple pie or a trans zombie?

[KOUNTRY]

I see chemda's point the woman is following the rules set in place for transgender fighters. And sure every fighter could have edge over other fighters Danny may have slightly more dense bones then Keith or few more pounds or longer reach or vise versa but the goal is to keep those edges slight not drastic hense weight classes and such and although Danny may or may not have slightly more dense bones then Keith or may not either way I sure they both have way more density in there bones then a six foot two woman of equal weight so I have to lean towards sure she can fight women if the women want to fight her make here the ultimate bragging rights win for any female who wants to try her cause she will have a significant advantage

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by KOUNTRY

I see chemda's point the woman is following the rules set in place for transgender fighters. And sure every fighter could have edge over other fighters Danny may have slightly more dense bones then Keith or few more pounds or longer reach or vise versa but the goal is to keep those edges slight not drastic hense weight classes and such and although Danny may or may not have slightly more dense bones then Keith or may not either way I sure they both have way more density in there bones then a six foot two woman of equal weight so I have to lean towards sure she can fight women if the women want to fight her make here the ultimate bragging rights win for any female who wants to try her cause she will have a significant advantage

I would like to say "great first post", however I can't.

Your username is all caps, so basically you're constantly yelling; and your fucking post is denser than a fat bastard's colon after he's eaten a block of cheese.

You also misspelled "cunt" in your username.

Anyway, maybe on your next post, you might take your "Enter" key for a spin?