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View Poll Results: Re: The MMA transgender woman
It's fair she fights women 16 12.80%
It's unfair she fights women 109 87.20%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-10-2015, 11:38 AM   #91 (permalink)
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What about testing every female athlete's bone density, t level, and basing divisions on that, as well as weight?

While the WFTDA's trans policy is not perfect for derby (I believe we should be more inclusive), it's a great deal better than most sports.

It states that you only need to provide proof of hormone levels if requested. Technically, this means cis women could be called on to do the same.

I acknowledge that this is tough, but I stand by my statement that trans women are women and should be able to compete with other women.

The MRDA has a beautiful trans gender policy that includes gender fluid skaters. Most male, and many female roller derby leagues take similar approaches for their non sanctioned play, but, as mentioned above the WFTDA is a little more exclusive.
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Old 04-10-2015, 12:33 PM   #92 (permalink)
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What about testing every female athlete's bone density, t level, and basing divisions on that, as well as weight?

While the WFTDA's trans policy is not perfect for derby (I believe we should be more inclusive), it's a great deal better than most sports.

It states that you only need to provide proof of hormone levels if requested. Technically, this means cis women could be called on to do the same.

I acknowledge that this is tough, but I stand by my statement that trans women are women and should be able to compete with other women.

The MRDA has a beautiful trans gender policy that includes gender fluid skaters. Most male, and many female roller derby leagues take similar approaches for their non sanctioned play, but, as mentioned above the WFTDA is a little more exclusive.
That's an unrealistic level of testing scrutiny. The ability to test that well in a frequent manner would have a discouraging effect against competitors.

Moreover, such testing would only account for a piece of the athletic advantages conferred from growing through puberty as a male. Thinner hips and a lack of a birth canal gives huge speed advantages for sports involving running.

As far as "proof of hormone levels" is concerned, there's no one acceptable level per WFTDA's rules. "Hormone levels" is a vague concept; there are no PPM limits on testosterone, nor is there a floor for estrogen levels, provided I'm reading the below correctly:

Women's Flat Track Derby Association Gender Policy - Women?s Flat Track Derby Association

Under this policy, gender definition is solely at the discretion of one's doctor, and doctors have varying degrees by which they set these definitions.

I acknowledge that trans women are women, but trans women run a spectrum of physical characteristics and athletic advantages based on their assigned birth gender. Trans women are women, but they are not cis women. There exist biological differences that affect athletic competition.

Moreover, I don't see how a policy such as WFTDA's could work for genderfluid/genderqueer people who don't identify along the gender binary. It seems to me that someone with male sex organs who doesn't transition chemically but does socially (i.e., the inverse of Lauren) wouldn't be able to participate.

In that sense, WFTDA's policy, and any policy you suggest here, would still actively exclude some transwomen as well as genderqueer/genderfluid participants.
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Old 04-10-2015, 01:44 PM   #93 (permalink)
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I actually, literally said that the WFTDA policy was still a bit exclusive. I also stated that many leagues choose a more inclusive policy for non sanctioned games.

As for the rest of it, I just can't anymore. If cis women can't put up with a little inconvenience so that their trans sisters can be included, fuck em.

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Old 04-10-2015, 02:41 PM   #94 (permalink)
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I actually, literally said that the WFTDA policy was still a bit exclusive. I also stated that many leagues choose a more inclusive policy for non sanctioned games.

As for the rest of it, I just can't anymore. If cis women can't put up with a little inconvenience so that their trans sisters can be included, fuck em.
I agree. However, your league sanctioned competitions are exclusionary, as are most sports. This is done to preserve competitive balance. It's tough to hold up your league as a counter-example (which you have done, to a degree) when it's really just a milder version of what other leagues do.

As for the testing? It's not a little inconvenience. It's an unrealistically thorough degree of medical and biological testing. And again, even with such testing, there would still need to be demarcating boundaries that would be highly contested. Trans participants would still be excluded, particularly those who don't chemically transition.

If you're willing to exclude trans women who don't chemically transition under your framework, it's tough to understand where your bright lines are. It just seems to be vagueness about not being exclusionary in an area that requires precision on a biological and chemical level.

I dunno. I see the policies women have put into place to preserve the integrity and competitiveness of athletics, and I just don't see a big problem. I think it's unfortunate that the body you're born into can cause exclusion in some contexts, but there are a lot of things in life that fall under that category.
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:48 PM   #95 (permalink)
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I just can't anymore.
Of course you can. You're a woman. Roar, baby!
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:54 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Sorry, you're confused. The WFTDA is not a league, its an association. Leagues have WFTDA level teams, as well as non sanctioned.

I stated that I personally feel that the WFTDA policy is too exclusive IMO, but that it is better than most sports.

My league (Rose City) consists of many teams that play against one another using a much more inclusive policy (though I'd like to see it become even better). Our All Star team has to follow the WFTDA policy in order to compete.

Another league I have been associated with (Mad Rollin Dolls) has an even more include policy than Rose, but their All Star team has to follow WFTDA policy.

The WFTDA policy, IMO, is not inclusive enough for derby. However, I feel that trumps the policies of other sports by more than just a little bit.

Like I said regarding testing, hormones, etc. I can't discuss this anymore. It's seriously raising my blood pressure. I promised myself I would pull out of cyclical discussions on the internet that cause my IRL anxiety a long time ago. Yay for mental health! (Basically, I feel like I'm repeating myself... A lot).

Last edited by marykae; 04-10-2015 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:55 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Of course you can. You're a woman. Roar, baby!
Preach it, Katy Perry!
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Old 04-10-2015, 04:21 PM   #98 (permalink)
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I meant Helen Reddy, but okay.
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Old 04-10-2015, 04:39 PM   #99 (permalink)
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I meant Helen Reddy, but okay.

It's 2015, Keith.
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Old 04-10-2015, 04:41 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Look at me... Once again getting it wrong when I care for women...
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