Keith and The Girl Forums

Keith and The Girl Forums (http://www.keithandthegirl.com/forums/index.php)
-   Show Talk (http://www.keithandthegirl.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   2162: Kissing & Screaming (http://www.keithandthegirl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19224)

Michael's Servant 04-12-2015 11:00 PM

2162: Kissing & Screaming
 
with Farah Brook – KISS ME NYC; Jackie Martling calls; Farah vs. her boyfriends’ moms; new poll results regarding transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox

Guest:
Farah Brook
http://www.keithandthegirl.com/guest...ok-100x100.jpg


Share this episode: Twitter, Facebook & email

Get the show: on iTunes, on Stitcher and RSS feed

invader 04-13-2015 03:26 AM

Are there inherent differences in strength between men and women?

Do those inherent differences make it unfair for men and women to compete against each other in strength based competition?

Does hormone therapy that a trans-person goes through erase this previously unfair advantage?

Three simple questions that would solve the debate.

In the interview with Fallon, she talks about being physically weaker but nothing really quantifable. Also she does have a background in competitive high school wrestling which is a great base for mixed martial arts. Finally if Danny and Keith both trained for a year, Danny would still have a clear advantage because of age. And the amount of testosterone his body produces at his age.

89vision 04-13-2015 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apia (Post 841811)
I really don't enjoy the " joke man", the annoys me and I always try to fast forward. For me, it's really enought of him.:cool::mad:

I disagree, keep the joke man

KOUNTRY 04-13-2015 10:56 AM

hell no kiss me Farah
 
Think people a little to damn sensitive these days.

Jack Bastard 04-13-2015 11:01 AM

It sounds like K and C need a vacation from each other. Every now and then, the fundamental differences between them, as people, really comes out and makes for a...less than fun episode.


And as this is a criticism of the show, I guess I'll probably go fuck myself now.

Professor Subterfuge 04-13-2015 11:06 AM

I'd like to see the following poll:

Is it possible to be pro-trans AND think Fallon Fox, (on some level, no matter how small) has an unfair advantage?

When a person announces they identify as another gender that change should be instant in our minds. As for the actual biology, this takes time. We know that Female to Male trans don't go full operation. Mostly because the procedure or science isn't in.

Unless we have concrete evidence that the biology of a trans woman is completely altered, (with no lingering male traits/ advantages) I have to assume that common sense combined with all the MMA people who are talking about how unfair this is, (not only unfair, but brutal - Fallon has made an absolute mess of her opponents) I have to say that I'm pro-trans, pro-Fallon living as a woman, but too much evidence points to her not fighting as one.

It sounds awful, but so is an unfair advantage. ESPECIALLY in a competition as absolutely fucking brutal, as MMA.

KOUNTRY 04-13-2015 11:14 AM

lol
 
Of course not totally valid view ��

John Harvey 04-13-2015 01:32 PM

The most interesting thing about today's show was that Danny is 6'2". Wtf. Posture, man, get some.

Hearing Keith and Chemda argue with all their nonscience was fruitless though. Three thoughts - I think Chemda is defensive about this understandably because of her relationship with Lauren. I think that Keith needs to learn when to drop something because based on the room, he totally lost this argument. I think that both genders should be able to fight each other anyway but the gals should be able to go for eyes and ball-shots to make up for the fact they could be KO'd in one hit by BIG STRONG MAN.

But back to the important issue - Danny needs to stand up straight.

Eric M 04-13-2015 01:44 PM

When chemda is dead wrong and just decides that she's right, it makes me sad. The points she makes are invalid. We're talking about maintaining the integrity of competition. Not about this persons life struggle.

John Harvey 04-13-2015 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric M (Post 841830)
When chemda is dead wrong and just decides that she's right, it makes me sad. The points she makes are invalid. We're talking about maintaining the integrity of competition. Not about this persons life struggle.

I think the problem is, when you're talking about issues of compassion vs issues around pure competition, it's impossible not to look like an asshole if you're arguing against compassion.

I consider myself a trans ally but I think it's not appropriate for trans people to compete in gender-divided physical competition. It just isn't.

ghauck 04-13-2015 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric M (Post 841830)
We're talking about maintaining the integrity of competition. Not about this persons life struggle.

I agree with this. I was curious how other sports have responded and found this wiki page for marathons
Marathon World Record

It is clear that a male body has a physical advantage with their world record being 10% better. I like that IAAF has a separate world record for trans gender.

With trans gender people feeling society is more accepting (which is a good thing) more will begin competing. If we don't dealt with this in a fair manor it's possible all woman's world records for all sports become dominated with trans gender people in the top 5 for each. This would be unfair and likely cause a backlash against trans gendor people because people thought with their hearts instead of minds.

I can't speak for trans gender people but I'm guessing they wouldn't want this either and prefer a separate ranking division.

I think most people get hung up by thinking we are saying "Your not a true women". This isn't Keith's argument at all. Of course a trans gender is a true woman. But their body is different in an unfair competitive way.

Let's say a male had a leg injury and received a robotic replacement that allowed him to consistently jump 10% further than anyone else in the Olympics. He of course would not be allowed to compete with regular body males and nobody would think this an attack or segregation based on anything other than fair competition. He is still 100% a male in mind and thought. Just not body.

Sparrow 04-13-2015 02:09 PM

doesn't maintaining competitive integrity include the dignity of its athletes? these aren't stats or battle bots, they're human. we have to include the human element or we do the spirit of competition a disservice.

ghauck 04-13-2015 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow (Post 841836)
doesn't maintaining competitive integrity include the dignity of its athletes? these aren't stats or battle bots, they're human. we have to include the human element or we do the spirit of competition a disservice.

I honestly believe openly admitting we need to discuss and come up with a fair way to categorize trans gender athletes is providing dignity. Not all sports are the same and in some it may not matter but this needs to be determined by the athletes.

To do nothing and allow someone an unfair advantage to becoming the best in the world would feel hollow. Allowing someone to prove they are the best in the world on equal footing with their competitors lifts the human soul.

Sparrow 04-13-2015 02:38 PM

ok, so, i think maybe a productive conversation might be whose opinion matters regarding policy making and how best to fairly represent their interests?

there are boards representing athletes in each sport, right? not just brand oversight, but athlete issues lead by athletes?

lizzy1e 04-13-2015 02:39 PM

Men are inherently stronger. In our karate class, the men can do a babillion pull-ups as if it's nothing and we women are lucky if we can pull off one. Men just have more upper body strength, the ligaments and muscles are just totally different. Yes, transitioning will zap that male strength to a degree, but I can't imagine it will undo all of the previous growth.

WSEIII 04-13-2015 02:43 PM

If I was in a bad mood then I'd find Farah's kissing me annoying. I would be shocked regardless of my mood. I hope she wouldn't be annoyed by my hard on.

ghauck 04-13-2015 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow (Post 841841)
ok, so, i think maybe a productive conversation might be whose opinion matters regarding policy making and how best to fairly represent their interests?

there are boards representing athletes in each sport, right? not just brand oversight, but athlete issues lead by athletes?

Well now I'm in agreement, which is boring.

What else can we debate? What's your thoughts on Danny and Rosa - will they last 1 more month, 1 more year or forever.

Sparrow 04-13-2015 03:02 PM

i hope forever. Rosa is the best.

lilgoodlad 04-13-2015 03:49 PM

Rosa Rosa Rosa

Was anyone else getting really frustrated listening to this episode? Lately, during the big fights on the show they both seem to be arguing completely different points and not really hearing each other much.

Corey420 04-13-2015 04:05 PM

Wow Chemda was being a total bitch. She seems to get super defensive when it comes to transgender anything.

EthanK 04-13-2015 04:25 PM

Matching weight classes does NOT make anything fair. There is a significant gap in strength between males and females even compared pound for pound: WHSPA State Records - WHSPA here's a sample of highschool state records in my old stomping ground of Wisconsin(I'm using this because it's a pretty straightforward chart with male/female weight classes, apologies if it seems arbitrary), at no weight class do females have the same totals though they generally keep up with deadlift/squat, bench and is always notably lower in the same weight classes across gender. Regardless of whether she's taking hormones now, 30 years of natural male hormones surely had some impact on her body.

Overall I think she probably has an advantage, but for what it's worth she has only fought amateur fighters with poor records. Personally I have more of a problem with wrestlers that have no legs. Sure they don't have legs but if someone is 160 lbs without legs- and legs make up about 40% of your body weight that means he has the torso build of a 250+ pound man- not to mention whatever superhuman wheelchair strength they have from scooting around all day.

Lanfear 04-13-2015 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghauck (Post 841835)

Let's say a male had a leg injury and received a robotic replacement that allowed him to consistently jump 10% further than anyone else in the Olympics. He of course would not be allowed to compete with regular body males and nobody would think this an attack or segregation based on anything other than fair competition. He is still 100% a male in mind and thought. Just not body.

There actually is a German guy who is missing one leg below the knee and tried to sue his way into competing in regular competitions for sprinting and long jump. They did some test and found he had an unfair advantage because of course he has.

rodimusprime 04-13-2015 05:02 PM

I love Jackie The Jokeman. I hope he never stops calling. Like if he dies I hope they've already recorded bits that they can play in the middle of the show like an advertisement.

Lanfear 04-13-2015 05:07 PM

I don't know where Chemda still finds the energy to get emotionally involved in these pointless discussions after knowing Keith & how he works his points on the show for so long and I am not sure whether I should find it admirable or silly.

I pity the poor guests that get caught up in these shows.

Eric M 04-13-2015 05:14 PM

I found it shocking that Lauren would've changed his opinion about this, I wish he was there to speak for himself.

Keith 04-13-2015 05:38 PM

The microwave fried his brain.

Lazarou 04-13-2015 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apia (Post 841811)
I really don't enjoy the " joke man", the annoys me and I always try to fast forward. For me, it's really enought of him.:cool::mad:


But the jokes are so fresh and new!!

FredG 04-13-2015 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader (Post 841809)
Are there inherent differences in strength between men and women?
Do those inherent differences make it unfair for men and women to compete against each other in strength based competition?
Does hormone therapy that a trans-person goes through erase this previously unfair advantage?

Three simple questions that would solve the debate.

I "like" how you assume a 'yes' to your first question for your second question, and your third question only means anything if there's a positive answer to your second question. So you're only asking ONE question, "Are men and women different?" And yes, they are! But can you see how that one question is too simple to solve this complex problem?

Women have a higher pain tolerance than men, they're more flexible, and they have a lower center of gravity. Those seem like some advantages in an MMA fight between two people of roughly equal size. counteracting bone density and skeletal muscles advantages.

How about these three questions to determine how you think about it?
1. "Do the strength related benefits of growing up male bodied provide a significant advantage over the toughness related benefits of growing up female bodied?"

2. "Does the situation make sense in reverse?" Would you force a trans man to only fight women once his transition to male was complete? Would you allow a trans man getting into the ring with male fighters?

3. "Are her advantages outside the range of normal genetic drift?" In other words, most men are taller than most women. But I'm a 5ft tall male, and most women are taller than I am.

I'm not considering some hypothetical superman who wanted to transition into a superwoman. I'm talking about this particular female fighter: Was her pre-transition self strong enough that no non-trans woman could possibly catch up?

I think, since Ashlee Evans-Smith won on a TKO (not a decision), that a woman has caught up.

starscream 04-13-2015 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredG (Post 841870)
I think, since Ashlee Evans-Smith won on a TKO (not a decision), that a woman has caught up.

Having an unfair advantage doesn't equal invulnerability. (Just like invulnerability doesn't equal an unfair advantage.) This whole thing is almost a moot point anyway. Fallon Fox isn't ranked, she's 39, and she will probably never fight for a title again.

Scumhook 04-13-2015 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apia (Post 841811)
I really don't enjoy the " joke man", the annoys me and I always try to fast forward. For me, it's really enought of him.:cool::mad:

How can you not laugh at two bananas talking to a turd????

Oh that's right, you're German...

DaveNJ 04-13-2015 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanfear (Post 841859)
There actually is a German guy who is missing one leg below the knee and tried to sue his way into competing in regular competitions for sprinting and long jump. They did some test and found he had an unfair advantage because of course he has.

Yep. Oscar Pistorius faced similar scrutiny before Olympic competition.

Open and inclusive sports still aren't open to everyone. When major differences present barriers to fair competition, we change the competition's rules.

We do this to divide children and adults. Adults and seniors. The able-bodied and the disabled.

Heck, it's even done for the disabled and the severely disabled. There are people out there who aren't sufficiently disabled to compete in disabled-centric competitions, yet not sufficiently able-bodied to compete in those competitions. That's rough, and that's the world that we live in.

The social inclusion of transgender members of our society has to take into account their biological reality. That's for better (access to hormones as a medical necessity) and the worse (gender-segregated athletic competitions).

I also think it's fascinating that Chemda has such strong opinions about competitive athletics. I've listened to this show for going on ten years, and it has almost never been an area of interest for her.

arty 04-13-2015 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scumhook (Post 841878)
How can you not laugh at zwei Bananen im Gespräch mit einer Scheiße????

Oh that's right, you're German...


+1 for the joke man, keep'm coming.

marykae 04-13-2015 09:52 PM

You guys. I got so frustrated discussing this in the last thread that two people had to tell me they wanted to cum on my face in order to get me to calm down (I like it when people remind me we are having fun, however they have to do that).

However, I just wanted to post my opinion on this clearly and concisely so it's on record in this thread as well.

You would never tell a woman who was born with a genetic advantage that she can't play with the other girls because she's too strong/tall/fast/pretty. Except that's exactly what you are doing. It's really very simple. This woman was born with the ability to get stronger than many other women (many, not all). That's it. That's all.

If you need me now, I will be lurking in the thread trying really hard not to respond/repeat myself.

Scumhook 04-13-2015 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marykae (Post 841917)
You guys. I got so frustrated discussing this in the last thread

It's OK, we assumed you were on your period.


Quote:

Originally Posted by marykae (Post 841917)
If you need me now, I will be lurking in the thread trying really hard not to respond/repeat myself.

What's your opinion on cunts who post blocks of poorly written text with no punctuation?

Keith 04-13-2015 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marykae (Post 841917)
You would never tell a woman who was born with a genetic advantage that she can't play with the other girls because she's too strong/tall/fast/pretty. Except that's exactly what you are doing. It's really very simple. This woman was born with the ability to get stronger than many other women (many, not all). That's it. That's all.

Do I respond to this?

I really don't know what to do.

As sure as you are, 87% of your fellow man/woman/zee says you're wrong. (And we can agree this is a fairly liberal group.) That's a pretty high percent that doesn't agree it's so simple that a woman is a woman is a woman. So maaaaaybe, just maaaaaaaaybe...

starscream 04-13-2015 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marykae (Post 841917)
You would never tell a woman who was born with a genetic advantage that she can't play with the other girls because she's too strong/tall/fast/pretty. Except that's exactly what you are doing. It's really very simple. This woman was born with the ability to get stronger than many other women (many, not all). That's it. That's all.

Clearer and conciser: Nope.

marykae 04-13-2015 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 841919)
Do I respond to this?

I really don't know what to do.

As sure as you are, 87% of your fellow man/woman/zee says you're wrong. (And we can agree this is a fairly liberal group.) That's a pretty high percent that doesn't agree it's so simple that a woman is a woman is a woman. So maaaaaybe, just maaaaaaaaybe...

Eh. I used think similarly to what some of the others are stating. I'm just going to assume the rest of you will catch up with me later. I won't even ask for an apology.

dannyhatch 04-13-2015 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Harvey (Post 841828)
The most interesting thing about today's show was that Danny is 6'2". Wtf. Posture, man, get some.

Hearing Keith and Chemda argue with all their nonscience was fruitless though. Three thoughts - I think Chemda is defensive about this understandably because of her relationship with Lauren. I think that Keith needs to learn when to drop something because based on the room, he totally lost this argument. I think that both genders should be able to fight each other anyway but the gals should be able to go for eyes and ball-shots to make up for the fact they could be KO'd in one hit by BIG STRONG MAN.

But back to the important issue - Danny needs to stand up straight.

I'm 5'10. Chemda is wrong when she says I am the same size as Keith. I think technically that makes her sexist.

Jo_Culprit 04-14-2015 01:06 AM

The argument between Keith and Chemda over the transgender MMA fighter is an uncomfortable one to listen to. It starts off debating fact and opinion and devolves unneccesarily into one about Keith's prejudices and Chemda's bias rather than identifying blank spots in each others scientific understanding.

Ronda Rousey's comments from the previous episode were completely dismissed by Chemda. Many medical professionals agree with the points Ronda raised, the argument should be how comprehensive the UFC guidelines are. Hormone replacements aren't enough.

Also, the women's division is the UFC is relatively new and the UFC are more interested in having more fights and match-ups, than exact biological fairness.

There is a point at which transgender women should be allowed to compete in the women's division. In my opinion we don't know enough about the body to get to that point yet (but we should be able to get to a point that's more reasonable). It may require genetic simulation to ascertain what would be different about that persons skeletal frame if they had've undergone female puberty.

Chemda won the argument with Keith but I don't think she appreciates how complicated the human body is and how many attributes you would have to consider to distinguish between natural advantage from male puberty and genderless natural advantage specific to that person.

Bucho 04-14-2015 01:54 AM

Even though I'm still on the your side of the Fallon Fox argument Keith, if this ep was a round of a fight a referee would have had to save your ass from the beating Chemda was dishing out.

Luckily Farah was there to step in, because your desperate deflections and dismissals were real white belt shenanigans. By the end it was like she was doing that bigger brother thing of holding your wrists and making you hit yourself. "Why are you punching yourself Keith? Stop punching yourself in the face Keith. Why would you do that to yourself?"


Quote:

Originally Posted by marykae (Post 841917)
You would never tell a woman who was born with a genetic advantage that she can't play with the other girls because she's too strong/tall/fast/pretty. Except that's exactly what you are doing. It's really very simple. This woman was born with the ability to get stronger than many other women (many, not all). That's it. That's all.

I can dig it. It's no secret that Africans and Polynesians have athletic advantages over honkies. For one, to bring up an area that's been yapped about in this argument, they have significantly greater bone density than whites, to the point where the bone density of whiteboys is closer to the bone density of African women than African men. In fact between about 40 and 50 years old white men and African women have roughly the same bone density.

To be clear, what I'm saying is that 40 year old white men should be allowed to fight black women.

https://depts.washington.edu/bonebio.../ethnicBMD.gif


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:02 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
Keith and The GirlAd Management plugin by RedTyger