I now pronounce you wife and wife.

[HighMike]

Originally Posted by balls

can you read?

Yes

Originally Posted by balls

do you just skim posts without really paying attention to them?

Yes

Originally Posted by balls

first of all i realize things change, but most divorces happen within the first few years of marriage. i am sure some of them are due to major changes in peoples lives, but the vast majority of the time people dont realize what they are getting into.

I think people know full well what they are getting into.. Why do you think strip clubs are popular choices for potential grooms/brides as well as "cold feet"? Im sure marriage creates unpredictable burdens but we all know this.

Originally Posted by balls

the point of the marriage counselor is not to convince people they love each other, it is a brief opportunity to let people know what they are getting into.

This didn't answer my question. What insightful knowledge would the counselor give? I can't think of one thing. Besides most people talk to family about marriage. Who the fuck needs some stranger telling you what to expect out of your own marriage?!

Originally Posted by balls

i will tell you again why we should take divorces more seriously -- you stated part of it, but got it wrong. divorces COST the government a lot of money. the cost of the court time for a divorce is far more than what is collected in court fees.

You need to cite those kind of facts. Dump assumption.

Originally Posted by balls

when people go through a divorce their productivity goes way down which costs the company money. the average net worth of people bottoms out right before a divorce leading to a high rate of bankruptcy after divorce.

You are making up shit that doesnt happen.... Again cites please.
You assume all divorces result in bad relationships.
And What about domestic violence disputes?
It seems like you want to make it more difficult for battered spouses to leave their situation.

Originally Posted by balls

guess what the common thread is there...MONEY, that is TAX MONEY. divorce costs YOU money in the way of taxes collected to pay the bills. i am assuming you have a
job, which might be a leap based on your screen name, but still.

1. Divorce's don't cost me money.
2. Why does the fact that I smoke pot mean I wouldn't have a job? (you make all kinds of wonderful assumptions about the world)

Originally Posted by balls

do you enjoy having the government take money from you to pay for the costs incurred when other people divorce?

Iraq war costs money, not marriages.

Originally Posted by balls

especially if the whole thing might have been avoided if a counselor had allowed them to have a little bit if introspection....

Introspection into a life that the counselor cant possibly predict. No couple has the same marriage experiences.

Originally Posted by balls

finally, you clearly have never known anyone who has gone through a divorce.

My mom. Nice assumption once again.

Originally Posted by balls

people do not get divorced and remarried freely because they feel "freed from moral obligations." divorce is extremely difficult psychologically on all parties involved, case in point suicide rates increase dramatically during and after divorce. tell me do "liberated people" kill themselves?

Nice leaps. Not logical. Divorce is extremely difficult because a relationship was broken in one way or another. And some divorce's are not difficult (like my mom's case).
Show me a cite on the suicide rates... I would trust you except you have already made 10 fucking stupid assumptions within one post.

Originally Posted by balls

anyone who goes through a divorce and isn't affected by it either has antisocial personality disorder or was in a seriously abusive relationship (in which case an immediate divorce is absolutely necessary)

My roommate's parents had a divorce because they just got bored of each other. They lost love for one another over time. The divorce was not mentally damaging and they are great friends today. You may think this is a rare instance but I think marriage (in a religious sense) is changing. You may have been right 25yrs ago when divorce was a absolute no no.

[balls]

"Antisocial personality disorder is a psychiatric condition characterized by chronic behavior that manipulates, exploits, or violates the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal."

someone who callously divorces people and could care less what effect it has certainly fits the definition. you have your definition backwards by the way, APD is often found in criminals, but not all with APD are criminals.

all i am saying is that i wish there was a way we could get people to just think about what they are doing. this applies as much to marriage as sex, running up huge credit card debt, using drugs, drinking and gambling. i am not saying that any of those things are good or bad, just that people should think more carefully about them before they start down that path.

too often the attitude of young americans can be summarized with "I am going to do what ever I want to. It is my life and my decision and I am not going to listen to anything that anyone else has to say."

unfortunately, some of us are the ones who wind up scraping up the mess of your life on the other side after you hit 35-40. all I am saying is that i think people should put a little more thought into their lives and not just assume that everything will work out later.

and yes, i do have a background in psychology and health care.

[decola]

i'm for the government not being involved in marriage at all.

[HighMike]

Originally Posted by balls

"Antisocial personality disorder is a psychiatric condition characterized by chronic behavior that manipulates, exploits, or violates the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal."

You want to have a debate about psychology? Homosexuality was a disorder.

Everyone has ADD! Nuff Said.

Originally Posted by balls

all i am saying is that i wish there was a way we could get people to just think about what they are doing. this applies as much to marriage as sex, running up huge credit card debt, using drugs, drinking and gambling. i am not saying that any of those things are good or bad, just that people should think more carefully about them before they start down that path.

Yeh people are thinking more about marriage. FINALLY! After thinking about it more people have realized divorce is an option. (you assume people arent thinking because YOU do not like their personal decisions) The taboo is decreasing. Why is do you think if people "thought about it more" they would all the sudden stay married or choose not to get married?

I also don't know very many married couples who hadn't thought about marriage in great detail beforehand.

Originally Posted by balls

too often the attitude of young americans can be summarized with "I am going to do what ever I want to. It is my life and my decision and I am not going to listen to anything that anyone else has to say."

As they should.

Originally Posted by balls

unfortunately, some of us are the ones who wind up scraping up the mess of your life on the other side after you hit 35-40. all I am saying is that i think people should put a little more thought into their lives and not just assume that everything will work out later.

No one assumes their marriage will be perfect. Also, Explain to me why my mom getting a divorce forced you to scrap up her mess? This should be interesting.

Originally Posted by balls

and yes, i do have a background in psychology and health care.

What about in common sense?

[cogy]

Originally Posted by balls

"Antisocial personality disorder is a psychiatric condition characterized by chronic behavior that manipulates, exploits, or violates the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal."

someone who callously divorces people and could care less what effect it has certainly fits the definition. you have your definition backwards by the way, APD is often found in criminals, but not all with APD are criminals.

im telling you what i got from a forensic psych course including the text book and profs who run admission at john jay socj. so it may be more geared toward law enforcement. but i did check wikipedia before i posted and saw something similar to what youre saying.

apd is mostly applied in forensics and courtrooms for children who, before they turned 18, but not before 15, were labeled conduct disordered. criminal activity is the hallmark of apd whether or not the person has been caught and punished.

[balls]

Originally Posted by HighMike

(bunch of stuff)

ok matter #1 the cost to the government. lets take an example case here. as an example, lets take a simple contested divorce no children, no restraining order. we are going to use the numbers from texas. (http://www.co.nueces.tx.us/districtc...ling_fees.pdf). it is going to be $232 + $ 248 + $388 =$868 for the legal fees. we are going to assume that this is a barebones situation - 1 judge, 1 transcriptionist, 1 sherrif. judge makes $133,000 a year (http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/l...G12000022.html) and work 40hr/week (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos272.htm) and work 345 days a year (http://www.jobsfed.com/rp/cgi/Vacanc...0935;Valued=1). this means that they earn about $70/hr. court reporters earn $42,000 a year which works out to $22 a hour. a sherrif in texas makes about $25,000 a year (http://www.window.state.tx.us/lga/fm...co/issue4.html) which works out to $13 a hour.

just for those people to be there it is costing $105 /hr. there are obviously more people working here, but we are just assuming it is those three for examples sake. a contested divorce (one in which there is property and money being disputed along with showing reasonable cause for divorce) can take anywhere between 1 day to 3 or 4 days (http://www.subcourts.gov.sg/family/p...April2006.htm). assuming the proceedings last 5 hours per day (which is actually less than reality, but that just means we are underestimating) the total cost is between $525 and $2100. this means that the only way the fees paid by the people being divorced are covering this way underestimated total cost is if the proceeding lasts only 1 day. if it lasts 4 days then it costs the TAXPAYERS $1232. that is right, at the very minimum this divorce costs people who are not involved in anyway $1200.

lets go with the divorce rate of 1998, sure it is more now, but it is data i can find quickly. in 1998 there were 1,135,000 divorces in the US http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/pha/osr/...ge/Tab3.5.asp). take that number and multiply it by $1200 and you get $1.3 billion. that is right, nationwide divorces cost AT LEAST $1.3 billion in tax money of people that had nothing to do with it. you are right, it isnt iraq but that is a shit load of money.

point #2: what the hell can counselors do?

"The top reasons given by ex-husbands and ex-wives were: (1) "lack of commitment," (2) "too much conflict and arguing," and (3) "infidelity" -- reasons that can be addressed by counseling and interventions included in various healthy marriage initiatives." (http://www.divorcereform.org/cor.html)

point #3: pot and employment

that was not a random assertion. regular pot smokers have an unemployment rate 150% higher than the US average. thus, you are 1.5 times more likely than me to not have a job. (http://drugandhealthinfo.org/page06.php?ID=308)

point #4: suicide and divorce

"Suicide levels are highest among the retired, unemployed, divorced, the childless, urbanites, empty nesters, and other people who live alone." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemi...ogy_of_Suicide) also, suicide rates skyrocketed in men after the implementation of "no-fault" divorce laws in place in most states (which do not require anyone to prove that anything is wrong with the marriage) (http://www.fathersforlife.org/US_suicide_deaths.htm)

"Mothers who initiate unilateral divorce tend to keep the children and a substantial portion of the property and future wages of the father. In a marriage involving disputes over finances, no-fault divorce gives mothers a legal way to seize control of property and income without having to deal with the father." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_fault_divorce)

you want a fucking impressive stat for the correlation of divorce and suicide? (http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/death-su.html) they found a correlation coefficient of 0.75 between divorce and suicides. in case you havent ever taken a course in stats, that is an incredibly powerful link. one can say there is a STRONG correlation between the two.

final points:

i agree that marriage in a religious sense is changing. i am sorry that your mom went through a divorce. i think your roomate's parents were the exception. there have been a lot of divorces in my extended family, my friend's families and among my coworkers and very few of them ended so amicably.

you are right that friends and family are good to talk to, but they all enter the discussion with a bias. a "stranger" as you say would be able to objectively offer facts.

all i am saying is that maybe someone should sit down with the people ahead of time and let them know about the fucking mess a divorce could be for them in the financial, legal and psychological sense in 10 years. really, in my mind all i am saying is that this should be the equivalent of looking both ways before crossing the street.

[balls]

high mike, i honestly dont know why i am arguing with you.

everyone has ADD? are you even aware of what the DSM IV criteria are for ADHD diagnosis? do you even know what the DSM IV is? sure people jump around in what they are paying attention to. you are supposed to, assuming your reticular formation is working. are you so sure that everyone has ADHD as opposed to overindulgence in those hyper-caffeinated redbulls, etc.

i agree with you that older people are now thinking about divorce because they aren't as restrained by "social standards." however, i am talking about young people, people less than 30. this group of people gets married and divorced at a very high rate. society hasnt changed during their marriage. look at what i just posted. high divorce rates are directly correlated to "no-fault" divorce laws. divorces used to require huge amounts of evidence of violence, infidelity or utter irresponsibility. now, it requires a lawyer. more people get divorced now because it is legally easier to. personally i think people just get divorced because they dont feel like working on their marriage --lazy if you ask me.

frankly, you are irresponsible if you believe that you can just do what ever the fuck you want to. you are not special. the rules apply just as much to you as anyone else. you can fool yourself only for so long. my reference to scraping people back together comes from my job. have you ever suddenly been presented with a seizing, cyanotic, vomiting patient in ventricular fibrillation because they drank too much? have you ever injected naloxone into an overdosed patient sending them into immediate withdrawal and violent seizures? have you ever had to lead someone's family back to a trauma room where you presented them with the dead body of their son who blew the back half of his skull off committing suicide?

i love my job very much, and i makes me proud to help and serve patients. that doesnt mean i dont wish that people would be more responsible with their decisions. believe me, i would love to just sit there reading a book instead of seeing patients because no one decided to inject heroin cut with comet (yeah, that really happened).

i can guarantee that every single one of those people i just discussed had the same attitude as you, the "fuck the world, i decide what is right for me." yeah, they sure showed the world who was in charge.

you know sometimes it just makes sense to listen to someone else once and a while.

[Noahfingway]

I voted no....Gays should have all the rights listed by Mali....It's just not marriage.

[HighMike]

Originally Posted by balls

ok matter #1 the cost to the government. lets take an example case here. as an example, lets take a simple contested divorce no children, no restraining order. we are going to use the numbers from texas. (http://www.co.nueces.tx.us/districtc...ling_fees.pdf). it is going to be $232 + $ 248 + $388 =$868 for the legal fees. we are going to assume that this is a barebones situation - 1 judge, 1 transcriptionist, 1 sherrif. judge makes $133,000 a year (http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/l...G12000022.html) and work 40hr/week (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos272.htm) and work 345 days a year (http://www.jobsfed.com/rp/cgi/Vacanc...0935;Valued=1). this means that they earn about $70/hr. court reporters earn $42,000 a year which works out to $22 a hour. a sherrif in texas makes about $25,000 a year (http://www.window.state.tx.us/lga/fm...co/issue4.html) which works out to $13 a hour.

Congrats retard you listed everyone's income. It doesn't take my degree in economics to understand that those incomes then contribute to other sectors of the economy. You are not even using an economic model to determine cost benefit. When you get your paycheck do you just sit on all your cash? Probably not. You probably will buy groceries and help walmart.

AND WHO THE FUCK GIVES A SHIT ABOUT GOVERNMENT COSTS WHEN WE ARE SPENDING BILLIONS IN IRAQ FOR NOTHING!! The small income of state employees cant even compare.

Originally Posted by balls

lets go with the divorce rate of 1998, sure it is more now, but it is data i can find quickly. in 1998 there were 1,135,000 divorces in the US http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/pha/osr/...ge/Tab3.5.asp). take that number and multiply it by $1200 and you get $1.3 billion. that is right, nationwide divorces cost AT LEAST $1.3 billion in tax money of people that had nothing to do with it. you are right, it isnt iraq but that is a shit load of money.

I love your homemade anaylsis . Have you found an advocate that actually says divorce rates are bad for the U.S. economy? Or are you still rambling about nothing.

Originally Posted by balls

point #2: what the hell can counselors do?

"The top reasons given by ex-husbands and ex-wives were: (1) "lack of commitment," (2) "too much conflict and arguing," and (3) "infidelity" -- reasons that can be addressed by counseling and interventions included in various healthy marriage initiatives." (http://www.divorcereform.org/cor.html)

Yeh I know all kinds of people say counseling is needed. I asked you what you thought a counseler could provide a couple that is excited about marriage that friends and family cant or dont already? You're wasting time with this irrelevant shit.

Originally Posted by balls

point #3: pot and employment

that was not a random assertion. regular pot smokers have an unemployment rate 150% higher than the US average. thus, you are 1.5 times more likely than me to not have a job. (http://drugandhealthinfo.org/page06.php?ID=308)

Congrats you pick a conservative research tank. I don't understand where you think this statistic gets you. You have no idea the bias or methodology used and expect to cite it as fact and rely on that fact as your judgement of the world. You clearly need a spliff.

Originally Posted by balls

point #4: suicide and divorce
"Suicide levels are highest among the retired, unemployed, divorced, the childless, urbanites, empty nesters, and other people who live alone." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemi...ogy_of_Suicide) also, suicide rates skyrocketed in men after the implementation of "no-fault" divorce laws in place in most states (which do not require anyone to prove that anything is wrong with the marriage) (http://www.fathersforlife.org/US_suicide_deaths.htm)

FATHERS FOR LIFE! HAHAHAHAHAH And I love the wikipedia citing. I once made up my own word but it didnt stick up long. Even if I assume there is no research bias you are listing 7 categories of people that kill themselves. OF COURSE there will be some divorced people in there.

Originally Posted by balls

you want a fucking impressive stat for the correlation of divorce and suicide? (http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/death-su.html) they found a correlation coefficient of 0.75 between divorce and suicides. in case you havent ever taken a course in stats, that is an incredibly powerful link. one can say there is a STRONG correlation between the two.

TRINITY IS A RELIGIOUS SCHOOL YOU FUCK TART. You think they would post liberal statistics? They clearly have a religious interest in discouraging divorce.

Originally Posted by balls

i agree that marriage in a religious sense is changing. i am sorry that your mom went through a divorce. i think your roomate's parents were the exception. there have been a lot of divorces in my extended family, my friend's families and among my coworkers and very few of them ended so amicably.

Im not sorry my mom went through a divorce. Divorce is not always a bad thing and you need to understand that. You act like it was a death. As if "Im sorry for your loss".

Originally Posted by balls

you are right that friends and family are good to talk to, but they all enter the discussion with a bias. a "stranger" as you say would be able to objectively offer facts.

How can the stranger supply facts about a marriage that hasnt happened yet between two people? Dude, you just don't make sense. That stranger also has his or her own interpretation of marriage that is scewed into the therapy.

Originally Posted by balls

all i am saying is that maybe someone should sit down with the people ahead of time and let them know about the fucking mess a divorce could be for them in the financial, legal and psychological sense in 10 years. really, in my mind all i am saying is that this should be the equivalent of looking both ways before crossing the street.

What im saying is that it WONT WORK because people who are madly in love and want to get married will not break an engagement because of a stranger.. Of course any talk of divorce will be blocked out. No1 wants to hear that before their wedding nor will they listen.


You talk about wasting money...you want to mandate that everyone couple meet with a "hired stranger"...I would love to see how much those salaries are.

[klang]

In Denmark, gay marriages can be conducted by a lesbian priest, who is married.

Separation of State and Church .. isn't that a Constitutional Principle in the USA?