This monumental assfucking brought to you by the Democratic party

[spooky]

Originally Posted by MalcolmSmith

Bad analogy... unless you're imagining there are NFL players that make their teams lose (or go out of business altogether) and still get paid top $. There are a lot of CEOs out there that are completely dysfunctional for their companies, yet rake in 10s or 100s of millions in compensation. In large part, executive hiring and compensation is a feudal rather than merit based system. It is actually possible to pay peanuts and get a good CEO or pay millions and get a Loser.

It's not a perfect fit, you are right. And it's far more complicated than I am capable of addressing.

[MalcolmSmith]

Originally Posted by WildmanNot

Either pay for the insurance or suffer on your own. That's the only fair way to do it.

Some would say that the fair way to do it is to establish one single pool that everyone has equal access to. Or, go to a straight cash fee-for-service system. If you can't pay for it, you can't have it. It would be unfair if someone got treatmet on credit and then defaulted. Cash up front. Is that better?

But, of course, there's the question of who deserves health care as compensation. Our system would be fairer, I suppose, in a merit-based compensation structure, but that's not what we have.

[stabbyhappy]

Speculating about a new health care stradegy is great, but Obama just passed one that is supposed to fix the major problems. So if we want to change it yet again, we'll have to scrap this one. As it is now I see a lot of people are about to get fucked in the ass even harder than before (as was nicely stated in the opening discussion) and the jizz of the bill is only starting to trickle out.

[big bad bold]

It is not a complicated thing to understand. The U.S. pays ~15% of gdp for healthcare. Most other "developed" countries pay ~10%. Why is that? Is it because they suck? Is it because they have to wait for treatment? The reason is that we are the dumbest people in the industrialized word. We fall for these scare tactics from these guys like Frank Lutz. He runs his focus groups for the GOP and figures out that by calling the Democrats plan a "government takeover" most Americans will oppose it. The rest is history. If we weren't so fucking dumb we would already have a Bismarck model system like Germany.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by MalcolmSmith

No. This is not brought to you by the Democrat party. Basically, what we have here is a medical bubble--similar to the .com bubble and the housing bubble. The entire world of American health care is inflated, overpriced, etc. And there is a giant ball of credit out there supporting: new facilities; unnecessary equipment, technologies and research; massive salaries and profits; high-cost, ineffective or even dangerous pharmaceuticals, etc. That big medical credit bubble is about to burst--meaning we don't have the money to support the inflated costs of the medical industry as a whole. But, right now, it's still alive and the people who profit from it are loath to see the party end. So, they are using their leverage with government to keep it afloat by socializing the costs (through insurance or government--it makes no difference) in the same way we socialized the costs of the housing/financial crisis. It's a game of musical chairs. The only problem is all the health care people and bankers, etc. get to sit down first.

American businesses have been, are, and will continue to dump any employee they can from health care (the only real preventers of that now are nostalgic social values, which are rapidly evaporating). It has nothing in particular to do with either party. It has to do with the fact that the U.S. runs on a bubble-to-bubble economy. If there is one guy to hang the blame on for the bubble-to-bubble mindset, it's probably Ronald Reagan. He took the governor, guilt or social conscience, off of our economy. But, it's probably not fair to him alone--the American people elected him, because we liked that message. There's plenty of blame to go around. The question shouldn't be: Who is to blame?; but rather, What do we do now? We have trillions of dollars of bubbles up there that have to come down. How do we do that without killing each other?

Other than the part about Regan, I actually agree with a lot of what Malcolm has said here. There is a huge medical bubble because the consumer has been removed from direct cost factor of the equation. By creating a medical industry based on co-pays for the direct consumer, while constructing a system of favors and tax-breaks based on employer provided care, and coupled with an insurance industry that has lobbied hard for and won several measures that act to protect them from competition ... we have been effectively buying our medical care on a credit card for decades.

While I'm sure Malcolm and I will wind up at opposite ends when it comes to the solution, there is a bubble and it is a huge problem.

[lattaland]

It brings me great pleasure in knowing that poor people can't get the same health care as me. Don't take that away.

[Ansur]

Originally Posted by big bad bold

He runs his focus groups for the GOP and figures out that by calling the Democrats plan a "government takeover" most Americans will oppose it. The rest is history. If we weren't so fucking dumb we would already have a Bismarck model system like Germany.

You're right. If more Americans read the facts instead of relying on right/left wing talk-show hosts, we wouldn't have a lot of the problems we do now. A government takeover would be better than the current bill.

[Station]

Originally Posted by Ansur

You're right. If more Americans read the facts instead of relying on right/left wing talk-show hosts, we wouldn't have a lot of the problems we do now. A government takeover would be better than the current bill.

Wait, didn't we try that but then you guys said that was communism and flipped your shit, carrying assault rifles in public and taping tea bags to your Ben Franklin costumes? I think I remember that happening. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that happened.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ansur

You're right. If more Americans read the facts instead of relying on right/left wing talk-show hosts, we wouldn't have a lot of the problems we do now. A government takeover would be better than the current bill.

Better for who? You're just trading on master for another.

Originally Posted by Station

Wait, didn't we try that but then you guys said that was communism and flipped your shit, carrying assault rifles in public and taping tea bags to your Ben Franklin costumes? I think I remember that happening. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that happened.

Way to generalize with 'you guys.' Do you realize that as long as we play the red vs blue mentality, politicians as a group win?

[jjamis]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Better for who? You're just trading on master for another.



Way to generalize with 'you guys.' Do you realize that as long as we play the red vs blue mentality, politicians as a group win?

Well said John. We're being played.