"Slaves Obey Your Masters"

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

yeah, you're embarrassing yourself. drink a glass of water and go to bed.

ahh fuck it


it'll take a vat of water and 12 hrs to un-fuck me


i write what it write, and tomorrow i own the embarrasemt and the pain...

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

bob. dear. you are talking out of your ass. that's a ridiculous made up number and you know it. cite source or gtfo.

My point is that Catholicism and Orthodox and Protestantism combined are the vast majority of Christianity. Trying to say that what I have stated about Christianity applies to anything less than 90% of Christians is crazy.

Originally Posted by Sparrow

she absolutely isn't defending 100% of christianity. she has stated, often in fact, about the wide breadth of interpretive differences present historically and right now. Christianity is a mod podge. we want to talk explore and talk about it.

My point was that when someone says "Christianity" they are referring to the generality, not totality. Rabbit is refusing to see that. We can't talk about anything if we can't refer to generalities.

Originally Posted by Sparrow

you are creating hypotheticals, getting real pissed, and reaming people about things about the things /you/ made up. let's focus back into the reality of this thread and these specific people.

Not getting pissed and not reaming people. Maybe if you're feeling defensive you'd feel that way, but I'm just talking.

Originally Posted by Sparrow

bellyaching and shitting poops all over the room about the pitfalls of organized religion is exhausting and we really don't want to. that is not what this discussion is for. if you'd like to look at the bible and find its universal truths and humanity with the rest of us and how it may apply in a modern age, super! elsewise, please take it outside. my Happy gets real tired trying to chew through it.

I am talking about the original post and the intent of the original post. I am responding to the assertion the original poster made. That is on topic. Talking about what you just stated is a hijack of this thread.

Your mood getting stressed because I'm talking about organized religion in a thread about Christianity is fairly unreasonable. This is a thread started about "Christianity", not the Bible, not what lessons we can glean from the Bible without the bad stuff, just "Christianity" and a specific part of the Bible. You have always been free to make another thread about whatever you want.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Originally Posted by XrabbitX

Modern Christianity can't even agree on what texts should be in the Bible, let alone how to interpret all of it historically or theologically. I'm not telling you what Christianity "is." I'm telling you what it isn't.

This is a dodge. Christianity agrees on some things. Just because it disagrees on some things doesn't mean it doesn't agree on the thing I stated.

Originally Posted by XrabbitX

And just b/c I'm a "Christian" doesn't mean I agree with everything in the Bible. I disagree with a lot of it. I disagree with what should be in canon, and what is accurate even as far as the most basic theology. I disagree with quite a bit of modern Christianity. And it's important to point out that every problem I have with modern Christianity is a problem that is as basically as old as the religion itself. Everything I detest about Christianity is something that was already addressed by Christians within the first two centuries of the religion.

For one example: "And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals. But I said, "I am afraid because of what you have told me, that indeed little (ones) are, in our view, the counterfeit ones, indeed, that there are multitudes that will mislead other multitudes of living ones, and destroy them among themselves. And when they speak your name they will be believed." ~ The Apocalypse of Peter

This doesn't really address anything I said. Sure, you're free to believe whatever you want as a Christian. That doesn't mean most Christians don't agree on stuff, even if they have the ability to believe whatever they want.

Originally Posted by XrabbitX

"Christianity is not defined by your beliefs, rabbit. It is a generality."

Of course it isn't defined by my beliefs. I told you a lot about what it is historically, things based on the work of historians and scholars much more learned and intelligent than I am. I never told you, on this thread at least, what it is related to what I believe. But that cuts both ways. It's not defined by your stereotypes either.

I never defended modern Christianity on this thread one time, or said it was beyond criticism. That would be absolutely insane. You're putting more words in my mouth and creating more strawmen. Christianity, unfortunately, has been a terrible experience for a lot of people, now and historically. However just b/c it's been bad for millions of people doesn't mean I'm just going to hang my head and not do anything but apologize for it.

This thread is absolutely a defense of Christianity from a specific critique. Even if the critique is wrongly made refuting it is still a defense.

I didn't say you said it was beyond criticism. That would be absolutely insane. You're putting words in my mouth.

I have talked exclusively about this one aspect covered by the original post and the parts of Christianity that relate to it.

I have no idea why you're bringing up historical Christianity and its actions because I didn't, I see it as irrelevant, and I don't care. You called up the straw man argument, and then you deployed the shit out of it.

Originally Posted by XrabbitX

I've given you plenty of historical perspective on Christianity. In regards to pre-Catholic Christianity, it was a broad and wild religion between the time of Christ's life and Catholicism. It continues to be an equally broad spectrum now, if not even more so. If you don't want to take my word for it read one of those books I linked. They're all pretty amazing.

No, you've made an assumption based on a stereotype of me that I lack historical perspective on Christianity. That changed nothing.

I never said Christianity wasn't a broad spectrum. That's a straw man you made up.

Originally Posted by XrabbitX

For every stereotype you have about what Christianity supposedly "is," there is a person or example of the religion proving you wrong:

For instance the fact that Slayer's singer is Catholic:

Slayer - God Hates Us All (with lyrics) - YouTube

Has nothing to do with anything I said and disproves nothing.

Originally Posted by XrabbitX

Or that Stephen King, the master of horror, is a Christian and that several of his books are re-telling Biblical stories:

The Gospel of Stephen King ? CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

Has nothing to do with anything I said and disproves nothing.

Originally Posted by XrabbitX

or that this is actually Christian music:

Extol - Inferno - YouTube

or this:

Zao - Lies Of Serpents, A River Of Tears - YouTube

or this:

Strongarm - The Advent Of A Miracle - YouTube

Has nothing to do with anything I said and disproves nothing.

I listen to Christian music, you raging stereotype machine. Not hidden, not covert, not secretly Christian music. Blatantly Christian. Singing about Jesus and shit.

Originally Posted by XrabbitX

or that these Christians, for instance, care about gay rights as much as any of us:

Christians 4 Equality

Has nothing to do with anything I said and disproves nothing.

You've made so many assumptions about me it's crazy. You should really rethink how you view people, because without me saying anything about Christians as people, famous Christians, the possible tolerance of Christians, whether or not some Christians like gays, on and on and on, you made all this shit up and set out to disprove the assumptions you made.

But, you know, you're doing a good job of proving how Christians aren't jerks who stereotype the shit out of me.

Edit: You know what? I'm a little suspicious that you pulled a bunch of metal songs because you picked up that I'm into metal, and assuming that I don't know about the religion I'm talking about or the music I like would be pretty offensive.

[Cretaceous Bob]

Just doing some quick math Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity combined is like 70% of Christianity and those churches very clearly state that they believe just as I have said. That doesn't even include any forms of Protestantism that believe the Bible is the word of God (hint: it's a whole lot).

Vast. Majority.

[XrabbitX]

My point is you can't generalize Christianity. Modern Christianity doesn't really agree on anything at all. You can say it does, but that doesn't make it true.

For example there are two popes, multiple versions of the Bible, and Mormonism, what many Christians would consider a cult has a tremendously large following. "Orthodox" is only a matter of perspective.

Who is stereotyping who? You say 98% of Christianity is the same thing, and then want to cry foul when I point out multiple examples of how it isn't. I've been talking about a lot of specifics and you want to lash out about generalities. It seems like we were on a different page from the get go.

I don't really see how I ever "stereotyped" you when I'm responding to your claim that Christianity is a homogenous religion. It isn't and I backed it up with modern as well as historical evidence and shared specific examples. You've brought nothing to this discussion but: "I'm right and you're wrong."

"Edit: You know what? I'm a little suspicious that you pulled a bunch of metal songs because you picked up that I'm into metal, and assuming that I don't know about the religion I'm talking about or the music I like would be pretty offensive."

I'm assuming you don't know anything about the religion you're talking about b/c you've proven without a shadow of a doubt that you don't. I posted metal songs b/c people assume all Christian music sounds like Michael Bolton. Metal is as far away from that as you can get. Plus that is the music I listen to, and those are some of my favorite songs. I don't know anything about your personal preferences, nor do I care enough about your opinion to research you for the purposes of this discussion.

"But, you know, you're doing a good job of proving how Christians aren't jerks who stereotype the shit out of me."

If you want to play victim go ahead. I've tried to address everything you've told me on this thread. You've come across to me as incredibly condescending and arrogant this entire time. Now you want to boo hoo about what a big mean jerk I've been. You don't get to be a bully and demand sympathy at the same time and then turn around and expect me to feel bad. I'm not stupid enough to fall for that.

We'll have to just agree to disagree because I'm done discussing this with you. I'm not going to try to have a debate/discussion with someone who provides no evidence and then wants to try to manipulate me into feeling bad for disagreeing with their bullshit.

[Sparrow]

bob, dear, it's just very hard to get to anything worthwhile beyond "THIS AND THESE PEOPLE ARE BAD" when you speak largely in generalities, which you are.

nothing in this world is black and white. get into the grey. you're a smart dude. stretch your own understanding and open your mind to something you may not believe, but may be real.

also, your statistic on dogmatic belief aren't real. cite it or consider the possibility you might be wrong.

[campy]

Bob likes to fight in the forums, it revs his engines.

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by Bucho

Speaking of uncomfortable trooves, have you ever read Guns, Germs and Steel Scummo? Food for thought if you're hungry.

But here's the TL;DR for if you ain't got the appetite for it: it wasn't a case of genetics which lead to us crackers inventing bottle-openers, wetsuits and HD porn.

Have just started reading it...

So far, there's been no wetsuits or HD pron, so I am somewhat disappoint.