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Old 09-21-2013, 01:25 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Modern Christianity can't even agree on what texts should be in the Bible, let alone how to interpret all of it historically or theologically. I'm not telling you what Christianity "is." I'm telling you what it isn't.

And just b/c I'm a "Christian" doesn't mean I agree with everything in the Bible. I disagree with a lot of it. I disagree with what should be in canon, and what is accurate even as far as the most basic theology. I disagree with quite a bit of modern Christianity. And it's important to point out that every problem I have with modern Christianity is a problem that is as basically as old as the religion itself. Everything I detest about Christianity is something that was already addressed by Christians within the first two centuries of the religion.

For one example: "And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals. But I said, "I am afraid because of what you have told me, that indeed little (ones) are, in our view, the counterfeit ones, indeed, that there are multitudes that will mislead other multitudes of living ones, and destroy them among themselves. And when they speak your name they will be believed." ~ The Apocalypse of Peter

"Christianity is not defined by your beliefs, rabbit. It is a generality."

Of course it isn't defined by my beliefs. I told you a lot about what it is historically, things based on the work of historians and scholars much more learned and intelligent than I am. I never told you, on this thread at least, what it is related to what I believe. But that cuts both ways. It's not defined by your stereotypes either.

I never defended modern Christianity on this thread one time, or said it was beyond criticism. That would be absolutely insane. You're putting more words in my mouth and creating more strawmen. Christianity, unfortunately, has been a terrible experience for a lot of people, now and historically. However just b/c it's been bad for millions of people doesn't mean I'm just going to hang my head and not do anything but apologize for it.

I've given you plenty of historical perspective on Christianity. In regards to pre-Catholic Christianity, it was a broad and wild religion between the time of Christ's life and Catholicism. It continues to be an equally broad spectrum now, if not even more so. If you don't want to take my word for it read one of those books I linked. They're all pretty amazing.

For every stereotype you have about what Christianity supposedly "is," there is a person or example of the religion proving you wrong:

For instance the fact that Slayer's singer is Catholic:

Slayer - God Hates Us All (with lyrics) - YouTube

Or that Stephen King, the master of horror, is a Christian and that several of his books are re-telling Biblical stories:

The Gospel of Stephen King ? CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

or that this is actually Christian music:

Extol - Inferno - YouTube

or this:

Zao - Lies Of Serpents, A River Of Tears - YouTube

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kToqKYVTVZo

or that these Christians, for instance, care about gay rights as much as any of us:

Christians 4 Equality
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Old 09-21-2013, 01:57 AM   #72 (permalink)
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I never did understand how anyone can argue with sometimes belief.... I mean rabbit isn't coming in here and going wow.... These guys are right, I should be an atheist...... He's already admitted to defending a "book" that's full of things he doesn't necessarily believe in our agree to..... So in the end what kind of Christian are you...? If you don't want to be pigeon holed as a specific denomination of a religion then don't and stop labeling yourself as such.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:02 AM   #73 (permalink)
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I never did understand how anyone can argue with sometimes belief.... I mean rabbit isn't coming in here and going wow.... These guys are right, I should be an atheist...... He's already admitted to defending a "book" that's full of things he doesn't necessarily believe in our agree to..... So in the end what kind of Christian are you...? If you don't want to be pigeon holed as a specific denomination of a religion then don't and stop labeling yourself as such.
the tenets of christian belief aren't as wide as the bible itself. if you believe Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah you're a Christian. that's it. the rest is dogma.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:05 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Meh born and raised Roman Catholic and I never got it I guess.... I guess my father saying that Christians ruined the Roman empire was the beginning of the end...

I just find it hard to argue/debate someone on something that isn't based on facts but rather a belief.... I'll continue to read this thread though
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:10 AM   #75 (permalink)
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it's not hard. we argue about imaginary worlds all the time. the breaking bad thread is an example of that. any harry potter forums is the same. even sports are political enough to render their statistical facts secondary to the fanship universe.

understand the universe, the rules, and the players.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:12 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Different when the other side making the argument believes that Hogwarts and the game of quidich on magical flying brooms is real.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:16 AM   #77 (permalink)
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I never did understand how anyone can argue with sometimes belief.... I mean rabbit isn't coming in here and going wow.... These guys are right, I should be an atheist...... He's already admitted to defending a "book" that's full of things he doesn't necessarily believe in our agree to..... So in the end what kind of Christian are you...? If you don't want to be pigeon holed as a specific denomination of a religion then don't and stop labeling yourself as such.
I wouldn't say I'm defending the Bible. I was originally defending Paul's use of the word "slave" since I don't believe he is advocating slavery based on the rest of the text. (Personally I'd disregard most of the Jewish Old Testament, Revelation, and the Pastorals, based on theological and historical issues.)

I'm not sure if you're asking specifically what type of Christian I am, but if you are, then I'm Gnostic Christian, drawing largely from Valentinian and Sethian Gnostics. We pre-date Catholicism by 200-300 years so while I'm sure a lot of "Christians" still consider us heretics, I'm as traditionally Christian, and rooted in historical Christianity as anyone.

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Old 09-21-2013, 02:18 AM   #78 (permalink)
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the tenets of christian belief aren't as wide as the bible itself. if you believe Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah you're a Christian. that's it. the rest is dogma.
I'm actually friends with quite a few Christians who only view Christ as a myth, but that's basically the gist of it Christianity is united by the symbol of Christ, and divided by everything that comes after Him.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:20 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Different when the other side making the argument believes that Hogwarts and the game of quidich on magical flying brooms is real.
if your only topic of discussion is whether or not its real, you're missing everything. harry potter isn't real, but we can talk about the stories in meaningful ways. it's all expressions of being human. that's it. we're all humans talking about being human. it isn't hard to connect if you try at all.

seriously, our brains are not so narrow. prejudice is.

and, ya know, what's real to me in my brain is real to me. perception is reality across the board.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:28 AM   #80 (permalink)
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if your only topic of discussion is whether or not its real, you're missing everything. harry potter isn't real, but we can talk about the stories in meaningful ways. it's all expressions of being human. that's it. we're all humans talking about being human. it isn't hard to connect if you try at all.

seriously, our brains are not so narrow. prejudice is.

and, ya know, what's real to me in my brain is real to me. perception is reality across the board.

That's definitely true.

Plus honestly, I wouldn't even really bother making an argument on this forum that God is real. That would just be me either trolling or preaching, and I don't think that would be of value to anyone here.

Whether God is real or not isn't something I'd bother even trying to defend. If God is real he doesn't need my defense, and also I think trying to convince someone to agree with your personal beliefs just shows that you're insecure.

I read a quote recently that I really liked (can't remember it exactly) but it basically went: "Everyone wants to tell you what to think and what to believe. No one wants you to come to your own conclusions."
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