43: The Collective
 

Uh oh! Chemda is having a crisis of non-faith! The best show ever did continues to do it that way over here as Keith gets to the bottom of if Chemda is, in fact, an atheist.

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Usually I am team Chemda. Most episodes I can very much relate to what Chemda is saying and replying to her rants saying "YES! OMG I love you, you read my mind". But this episode I couldn't relate, I felt like the whole energy/vibes/ vibrations/ karma stuff that was mentioned was just "cause and effect" and body language.

We effect others and they effect others and so on, its the butterfly effect, its one giant cause and effect, I don't see any energy or anything else behind it. If someone is giving off the "vibe" that they are in a bad place its because we can tell by their body language they might be depressed or something unfortunate happened to them by the way their shoulders are slumped or their facial expressions. We learn as we go threw life how to read other people, some are better at it then others, and some might be better at hiding their emotions, but its a skill in my opinion, not a vibration we put out.

As far as the whole catcalling/Hennessy coming out as trans, we notice things more when we are going threw it. When we get a new car for example we start seeing that same car on the road more, our brains like to pick up on that kinda thing. If you are getting catcalled, so are a lot of women and because we are starting to stand up for ourselves more, because society is progressing, we are more likely to speak out, videos are being made about these incidences and we notice it more because it relates to us.

Maybe I am missing the point or am so into my "atheism" that I'm blinded but I didn't get it. I'll go smoke more weed, maybe I'll see the light :)

Miosio,

Very true.

I think I need to go back and visit the spaces that talked about vibrations that resonated with me.

I agree with you. I want to look at this other thing for a minute and see if there’s something to it. What if both are true?

I want to find out if it’s true. And if it’s not, I want to find out why people believe it (aside from it sounding good).


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Well that was unnecessarily antagonistic - any other old-timers here remember when Keith was the one reluctant to admit to atheism? "God" is a concept that has been sought for thousands of years - to try to capture it in a Miriam-Webster definition is ridiculous. I think like Chemda, chanting was one thing that awakened me to the divine. You chant, you feel connected to something beyond fairy dust. And then you want answers. So I look forward to hearing the journey - some of my stops have included the Dhammapada, Krishnamurti, Richard Rohr, &
Krishna Das .

That’s how we do it over here.

Yes, I was relunctant to not believe in God, because I believed in God, based on the definition of the word, which we use to define and explain things.

Also, any time someone turns to you and asks, “Do you hear that,” it could be the world chanting. Open your 3rd ear, people!

Don’t be upset that I’m saying you’re not allowed to have a god, Kevin. I guess Chanting is your God. Congrats. What are words anyway?

what does this even mean? i am totally aware there's stuff my body doesn't have the necessary receptors to perceive, but i don't call those things God. i understand we're all part of the same universe, but that doesn't read to me as divinity. i feel like those words are security blankets. i don't see the wisdom or what people get out of naming their read on the universe as God, Divinity, and Spirituality. feels like shoving a square peg into a circle word.

I'm about to reveal myself as one of those pedantic, know-it-all atheists, but I believe it's okay here because words mean things.

If theism is "belief in a god", then atheism--the "a" coming from the Greek "without"--is "without belief in a god". There is a difference between "I have no belief in a god" and "I believe there is no god". Linguistically, the word athiest refers to the first one.

People labeling themselves as agnostic are really only half-describing themselves. "Gnostic" and "agnostic"--"with knowledge" and "without knowledge"--are applied to both theism and atheism. (see Exhibit A, attached)

It is my belief that nobody can truly consider themselves to be gnostic--neither theists nor atheists. I don't agree that anybody can KNOW that a god exists. Similarly, nobody can KNOW that no god exists; it is impossible to prove a negative. People claiming to KNOW in either case really mean they believe really, really strongly and won't consider ideas in the other direction.

In my opinion, Chemda falls into the upper left quadrant, agnostic atheism. Chemda, you can still claim to have no belief in a god or gods and still engage yourself in a search for answers--even if it takes a lifetime.

Having said all of that--Chemda, you might consider looking into Secular Humanism.

This wouldn't necessarily even mean that you stop considering yourself an atheist; they're not mutually exclusive. One can be a secular humanist and be an agnostic atheist, but all atheists are not necessarily secular humanists.

A quick look into secular humanism: "Secular Humanism/Council for Secular Humanism" on Wikipedia

CHEMDA IS THE BORG!!!

Resistance is futile!


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Now, when you typed that, would you say that you affected the keys on the keyboard in NO way, shape, or form WHATSOEVER, or would you say that you did make at least SOME kind of difference?

Well I'd consider myself fully atheist but I do turn my dice to 'train' them to roll what I want.
#vibrations #criticalhit #nerdalert

Man, we worked very hard for over an hour to not understand agnostic. I think I knew we were heading for an episode like this when I heard Chemda talking about the singing at the Hare Krishna center.

Keith's right "your not religious your spiritual". It's the weed talking I've seen it all before, start eating Ital so it lines up with the hippie vitamins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ital

Jah Selassie I peace and blessings..

And with you being so sure, you're wrong, because she doesn't question the existence of a god. She knows there isn't one.

"But what if a lamp is my god?"

That's fine. It just means you don't know what words are.

I half get what Chemda is saying. We're all just energy and matter that came from the Big Bang. I like that everyone is connected like that and when we die we'll become something else (it makes me feel better about all the crappy decisions I've made in my life because I'll get another go soon enough). But I don't get the joint consciousness thing, I started getting lost there. I'm glad Keith mentioned spiritual because that's how I feel, but it can sound goofy to say. I just want to be one with the earth!

I think there are people who definitely don't believe everyone effects each other and the "universe." Everyone who denys climate change, super religious people who think only God punishes or grants blessings and so people of other religions are going to hell and are full of hate. There's the difference between religion and spirituality. Just believing in the end result and the rules and not in actually helping each other here in the present because God's love is enough.

Chemda is a total hippie and has been for a while. I don't think that's a bad word. hippies are just as made fun of as atheist from other outside groups. While hippie invokes the image of a flower prancing silly person, atheist involves a fat white dude in a fedora leaving shitty comments on any religious content online.

Spiritual Atheist is the perfect word for her. The idea that We are God is not new and the mind over matter idea of kinda literally putting out what we get and see in the world.

Chemda never said she believes in elf powder. Keith has too much left over Catholic rigidity in him to allow himself to be in this space. Even after repeatedly saying he believes in spirituality and connected energies (IE affecting people in ways that are unseen and not immediately apparent) he has to make fun of it cuz it's too wishy washy and gray.

So at the end you're saying the same thing. And Keith is a prick. And I'm into it

INCEPTION!

With all things just apply achems razor to it. Also look into logical fallacies. It's a lifetime struggle for me. Loved this episode.

I think that god is just the collection of shared consciousness. I dont think it would be possible we would have a concept of that as a species if we didnt have speech or written language. Its the buildup of communication and shared ideas over a space of time. People can experience the same kind of feelings through a football club, or even (to a lesser extent but still the same idea) the same people you see at the bus stop each morning, or the ritual of walking your dog. People make waaaaay to much fuss over things, jeez wouldnt it be nice if we were all just goldfish.

Duncan Trussell (who memorably interviewed Keith and Chemda) has championed the chant music / Kirtan I referred to earlier. His origin story with it is here if anyone is interested in learning more. I don't have the answers, I'm just open to the questions.

Another VIP Catch-up listen, sorry for the necro-posting...

I hope I haven't missed any big changes in Chemda's spirituality this year, because then all these words might be for nothing :(

Congratulations, you're wish can come true! Unfortunately you have to die first...

AS an ex-fundie Christian for 40+ years, I have explored this territory for almost two decades now. Instead of trying to split hairs over the definition of 'God' I find it easier to shift the discussion to natural vs super-natural. Most of what people think of as super-natural is basically impossible.

Example: If you traveled back in time to early cave-man and showed them something as simple as a flashlight, would they not think you had god-like powers? And yet you would be breaking no known laws of physics. You would be perfectly *natural*. But to them, a super-natural god.

As we have progressed through time, more and more things that we once either misunderstood or mislabeled come to be understood. We understand our heliocentric solar system with it's round earth orbiting it, and a round moon orbiting us. We understand that our universe is expanding and moving away from a central point. We no longer require a super-natural 'god' for this.

In my experience, this idea of a universal consciousness comes from a misunderstanding of the sensations and changes in perception during periods where the brain is under the influence of a chemical. The same brain can perceive alternate universes during LSD or peyote trips *AND* see giant non-existent pink elephants when bathed in alcohol. And let's not forget nightmares induced by PTSD. None of that is real or actually happening, but only the *good* trips are credited for allowing us to see into some other realm of supposed reality. And don't even get me started on salvia trips which can *induce* PTSD all on their own. (ask me how I know)

Just because the brain can have hallucinations doesn't mean it has become perceptive of reality. It is more likely that it is simply malfunctioning in unique ways.

I've meditated, done yoga, hung out in a Krishna temple, done salvia and weed and a ton of alcohol. Sometimes you have to see things first-hand. I get it. But while you are keeping an open mind, remain open to the possibility that there is no 'spiritual' connectedness or universal consciousness going on. Maybe such things are limited to the weak electro-chemical energy that keeps our brains working and our ability to read each other's body language. :)

Fucking Namaste

This one was interesting to listen to, and definitely deserves a sequel now that it's years on from its inception. Does Chemda still feel like this? Is the best show ever did dead? Find out on the next MNIK ep 48 👀