The Abortion Thread

[dionigi]

Originally Posted by jeffdrafttech

The morning after pill prevents implantation of the fertilized egg just like the regular birth control pill; it does not cause an abortion. It is effective 72 hours after unprotected sex. It would prevent most abortions.

I'm with you 100%, but I have to correct you on one very important point: Both the Morning-After Pill and normal birth control pills/patches/shots/etc act primarily by preventing fertilization- the egg never leaves the ovary, so the sperm and egg never meet. In the case of the Morning After Pill, if it is taken after the egg is released, and the egg happens to get fertilized, there is an ever-so-slight chance that it MIGHT prevent implantation, but not moreso than many other perscription drugs. The christian right likes to say that life begins at fertilization, and makes a lot of claims grossly overstating the ability of these pills to prevent implantation, which they see as another form of abortion.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by jeffdrafttech

Are you going to let everyone vote or just women? Perhaps with your views, it should only be men deciding what women can do with their bodies.

This is the trouble with raw democracy: it doesn't work. They voted to not let gays marry OR have any domestic partnership rights in my state, EVER. The MAJORITY made hate into a law. The constitution protects religious freedom, and abortion IS a religious issue (just like gay rights).

So, you think in Kansas it's OK for women to do their own abortions via instructions read on the internet, but in Texas it should be legal to hire a doctor to do it. Oh, that's right, only if most of their neighbors think is OK; sounds fair. Wha?

Abortion is not a religious issue. It's a medical issue that also concerns the first amendment. I believe men and women should vote on the issue. Why? It's prejudiced to not allow both genders to vote on the issue. Plain and simple. The majority in your state made their belief law. In a society all law has a foundation in belief, be it anti-murder, theft, or rape laws. We believe these actions to be wrong, and make them illegal. If you don't like our form of government, you can move elsewhere, but the fact is, abortion is a states' rights issue. Powers not delegated to the federal government fall to that of the state government. Therefore, the power to regulate abortion is a state issue. You may not like that, or even agree with it, but it's constitutional law. The constitution is what separates us from a "raw democracy". We don't have a raw democracy, otherwise every issue would be decided by referendum. In actuality, it is usually decided by elected officials. Still, if voters use their powers of initiative and referendum, they can propose or vote down key legislature. Your position on the issue may make sense for you, but on a legal level you show that you have no understanding of America's legal and judicial processes. Does it make sense that someone may have to do their own abortion in your state as opposed to Texas? YES. ABSOLUTELY YES. Why? Because your state considered abortion to be an illegal medical procedure. I can get experimental surgery in Guatemala. Why? Because they decided that many types of surgery that are illegal here are not illegal there. Does that make sense? The answer, of course, is yes. Constitutionally, the power to regulate abortion is relegated to the states. If you don't like that, you can move to a different state, or heck, even another country, but that's the way things have been done in America since the Articles of Confederation died, and I doubt it's about to change to suit you.

[dionigi]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a parasite until it leaves the body (arguably for another 16-20 years afterwards, too). I don't feel I have the right to tell a woman she can't have a tapeworm removed, even if it was her fault for eating undercooked pork.

[jeffdrafttech]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

Abortion is not a religious issue. It's a medical issue that also concerns the first amendment. I believe men and women should vote on the issue. Why? It's prejudiced to not allow both genders to vote on the issue. Plain and simple. The majority in your state made their belief law. In a society all law has a foundation in belief, be it anti-murder, theft, or rape laws. We believe these actions to be wrong, and make them illegal. If you don't like our form of government, you can move elsewhere, but the fact is, abortion is a states' rights issue. Powers not delegated to the federal government fall to that of the state government. Therefore, the power to regulate abortion is a state issue. You may not like that, or even agree with it, but it's constitutional law. The constitution is what separates us from a "raw democracy". We don't have a raw democracy, otherwise every issue would be decided by referendum. In actuality, it is usually decided by elected officials. Still, if voters use their powers of initiative and referendum, they can propose or vote down key legislature. Your position on the issue may make sense for you, but on a legal level you show that you have no understanding of America's legal and judicial processes. Does it make sense that someone may have to do their own abortion in your state as opposed to Texas? YES. ABSOLUTELY YES. Why? Because your state considered abortion to be an illegal medical procedure. I can get experimental surgery in Guatemala. Why? Because they decided that many types of surgery that are illegal here are not illegal there. Does that make sense? The answer, of course, is yes. Constitutionally, the power to regulate abortion is relegated to the states. If you don't like that, you can move to a different state, or heck, even another country, but that's the way things have been done in America since the Articles of Confederation died, and I doubt it's about to change to suit you.

I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court made it a federal issue in deciding Roe v Wade. Under the law as we are discussing this, it is not constitutional for states to make abortion illegal under the United States constitution. It is a privacy issue protected by the US Constitution as decided by the Supreme Court.

Democracy IS a terrible form of government, without the constitution to protect the minority interest. The way your mind works, it should be OK to do just about anything as long as the majority thinks it's OK. The only reason this government works is the brilliance of the constitution to protect the basic rights of all of us. I am very anti-war but I would certainly fight to keep our constitution, which protects my rights from "the majority".

You are also a fool if you really believe abortion is not a religious issue. I am pro-abortion but don't like the idea of using it as first-line birth control. I don't believe the law should take a womans right to use it any way she sees fit, and the US constitution agrees with me. If you don't like it YOU leave.

[dionigi]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

. In a society all law has a foundation in belief, be it anti-murder, theft, or rape laws. We believe these actions to be wrong, and make them illegal.

I've heard this before, but isn't it possible that laws have a different basis? Murder is believed by most to be wrong- it also happens to be illegal. But the reason we outlaw murder is to protect ourselves and the other members of society. On the other hand, most people would probably consider adultery to be wrong, but you can't go to jail for that.

I do think there's an ever-growing, ongoing movement in the US to legislate morality, but I don't think it necessarily has a historical basis, and I certainly don't think it's a good idea.

[spooky]

this is why i hate the democratic party. it always has to be one answer for everybody. youre with them or evil.

abortion, just based on the controversial nature of it, shouldnt be federal law, it should be a state one. then everyone can decide for themselves.

for the record, im proChoice, but if salt lake city doesnt want abortion clinics allowed, i believe its their choice, weither i believe its wrong or not.

why do people feel like they have the right to determine whats right or wrong for someone else? why do people think what they believe is right? its a belief. why do people want to take away a persons right to fuck up?

i voted for bush. and if it was kerry or gore Vs bush again, id still vote that way.

and for the record, if you dont take the time to type out the word 'okay', i wont take you serious. take the time.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by spooky

and for the record, if you dont take the time to type out the word 'okay', i wont take you serious. take the time.

Why? OK was actually how it was written first, and is still a very valid word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/OK

If you don't take the time to know your own language, then I wont take you seriously.

Cheers.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by jeffdrafttech

I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court made it a federal issue in deciding Roe v Wade. Under the law as we are discussing this, it is not constitutional for states to make abortion illegal under the United States constitution. It is a privacy issue protected by the US Constitution as decided by the Supreme Court.

Democracy IS a terrible form of government, without the constitution to protect the minority interest. The way your mind works, it should be OK to do just about anything as long as the majority thinks it's OK. The only reason this government works is the brilliance of the constitution to protect the basic rights of all of us. I am very anti-war but I would certainly fight to keep our constitution, which protects my rights from "the majority".

You are also a fool if you really believe abortion is not a religious issue. I am pro-abortion but don't like the idea of using it as first-line birth control. I don't believe the law should take a womans right to use it any way she sees fit, and the US constitution agrees with me. If you don't like it YOU leave.

The court's rationale for how abortion fits under privacy laws is suspect at best, and Rehnquist elaborated on this in his dissenting opinion on the decision (it passed 7-2). States can still make laws to curtail the legality of abortion, but cannot make it totally unavailable, as this is deemed unconstitutional by the decision. However, the decision is subject to review, and several cases are being filed now to ask for a current opinion on the constitutionality of laws regarding abortion. In my opinion, as per my interpretation of the constitution, abortion is a states' rights issue, as the power to regulate it was not delegated to the federal government. I also disagree with the court's rationale on Roe v. Wade. Their incredibly vague interpretation of the right to privacy (which, if you look, is not enumerated in the Bill of Rights, as only unlawful search and seizure are made unlawful) is suspect at best, and I consider it wholly wrong. I also believe that our the Supreme Court has overstepped its powers of judicial review as defined in Marbury v. Madison by de facto passing a law, which is not a power they are given. We have amendments to protect the rights of people in our republic, not court decisions. I agree the constitution protects our rights, but Roe v. Wade is in no way a constitutional amendment. If our representatives want to pass an amendment protecting the right to an abortion, well, they've certainly had a long time to do so. They have yet to pass one, and I don't expect one anytime soon. Therefore, the decision on abortion should fall to state governments, to be decided either by state legislature or a referendum. That's simply the way things work in America. And abortion is not a religious issue. It may be an issue that inflames religious sentiment, but it is not a religious issue. It is a legal issue regarding a medical practice. Just because somethign provokes a religious outcry does not make it a religious issue. You may not agree with my opinion, but legally speaking, I'm in the right. You may feel you are correct, but I KNOW I am.

[stjoe]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Why? OK was actually how it was written first, and is still a very valid word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/OK

If you don't take the time to know your own language, then I wont take you seriously.

Cheers.

You'll have to forgive spooky... He voted for Bush.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by spooky

this is why i hate the democratic party. it always has to be one answer for everybody. youre with them or evil.

abortion, just based on the controversial nature of it, shouldnt be federal law, it should be a state one. then everyone can decide for themselves.

for the record, im proChoice, but if salt lake city doesnt want abortion clinics allowed, i believe its their choice, weither i believe its wrong or not.

why do people feel like they have the right to determine whats right or wrong for someone else? why do people think what they believe is right? its a belief. why do people want to take away a persons right to fuck up?

i voted for bush. and if it was kerry or gore Vs bush again, id still vote that way.

and for the record, if you dont take the time to type out the word 'okay', i wont take you serious. take the time.

Thank you! I felt like I was all alone here in this opinion.