76: Line, Sync, and Hooker

[myq]

Originally Posted by lalalemon

I am so in love with this episode. The talk about gender and sexuality always fascinates me, and it's nice to hear some of my own thoughts expressed by people I really look up to.

Thanks so much! I am so in love with your posting here.

As a fellow lover and follower of Dan savage I wish "monogamish" was a more widely known and accepted concept. It has worked wonders for my current relationship and I honestly don't think I'd still be in it if we hadn't come to that understanding. Hearing stories like Myq's makes me feel like I'm making the right decision when most of my friends are like 'Whahahappa? Youdowha? Okaythatllworkriiiiiight'

Much appreciated!
And the good news is that I believe the concept of "monogamish" and awareness of the idea of polyamory and openness in general, these things are all gaining more presence in the public consciousness. The same way there have always been gay people, but it used to be they had to operate in secret for fear of judgment or worse, in a very short time a lot of progress has been made, and I think openness is on that track as well.
There are tons of smart, thoughtful, reasonable, loving people living this way, talking about it, being examples that show it isn't just a bunch of creeps and weirdos (or at least if they are, it's the best kind of creeps and weirdos), and more and more people who never had thought about it are now hearing about it, being all right with it, and even giving it a shot.
We're on our way!

I also really understood Myq's comments about sometimes understanding himself as a lesbian. Fairly early in my relationship I told my bf more than once that he reminded me more of a lesbian than a straight man... given he was raised by a mother, 5 sisters, and a gay brother- but his femininity and emotional intelligence was so connected, so on the same level as my own that it was weird to me how well we understood each other and how deeply our relationship developed in a relatively short period of time. Funnily enough he is also mistaken as gay on a regular basis.

Am I your boyfriend? Everything sounds like me except for I didn't have any siblings (and I do have a dad).

Sincerely, very glad you have found this guy (doll? gal? person!). Hooray!

Thanks for a great show. I am so impressed with how VIP has taken off and really opened up a new world for us fans. Can't wait for more

Thank YOU! For listening and sharing.

And if your geographical identifier is correct and you are indeed in Louisville, KY, I will also be there with Zach Sherwin doing a show on August 20, I believe. Hope to see you there if you're around! (And we can settle once and for all whether I'm your boyfriend.)

[BrianAlt]

Wow, I loved this conversation! It reminded me that I used to have conversations just like this back in late high school / college / post college. Then I got married and that was pretty much it.

I would have loved to be part of this conversation. Which might define the best podcasts. When you would have loved being in the room and part of the discussion, it must be a fantastic episode!

[myq]

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

Wow, I loved this conversation! It reminded me that I used to have conversations just like this back in late high school / college / post college. Then I got married and that was pretty much it.

I would have loved to be part of this conversation. Which might define the best podcasts. When you would have loved being in the room and part of the discussion, it must be a fantastic episode!

Thanks Brian! Would have been happy to have you in the conversation. In fact, now you are! What do you have to say for yourself?

And why did you stop having conversations like this just because you were married? Answered all the questions for yourself? What kinds of conversations do married people have? (Or not "married people," necessarily, but you individually at least. Sincere curiosity!)

[BrianAlt]

Originally Posted by myq

Thanks Brian! Would have been happy to have you in the conversation. In fact, now you are! What do you have to say for yourself?

I also grew up in a largely female centric family. I lived in a two family home. The other family was my mother's sister (my aunt) and her family. Both families had 2 boys and 2 girls. My grandmother moved in with us in my early teens.

That sounds pretty balanced, but it wasn't. My dad often wasn't around much, he was off working. My uncle was off doing whatever he was doing. So it was regularly my grandmother, my aunt, my mother, my older cousin (female and 10 months younger than me), my sister (3 years younger) and me. My younger cousin is male, but he isn't much of a heavy thinker.

So I was often at the table with five other women. I feel like I got a pretty steady dose of the female perspective. My aunt was a very outspoken woman and very funny. (Side note: she died a year ago after having Alzheimers for many years. Very sad seeing this vivacious woman turn into nothing. In many ways death was a blessing. She was in her early 60s.)

So I've always related to women more than men. In fact, throughout my life I've only had a handful of close male friends. To this day I'm very comfortable sitting around with my wife's friends.

And why did you stop having conversations like this just because you were married? Answered all the questions for yourself? What kinds of conversations do married people have? (Or not "married people," necessarily, but you individually at least. Sincere curiosity!)

When I got engaged a guy in my office congratulated me and said, "welcome to the club!" A coworker of mine said to me, "there is no club." And he was right. Men don't really talk about being married. Sure, they jokingly complain about their wives. But no one discusses what it feels like, the emotions, the pains, the struggles of being married. Women may discuss it with other women, but men don't discuss it with other men. And sexuality becomes more secretive. It's just between your wife and you. Talking about it outside of that feels a little like cheating, emotionally cheating.

Several years later, after my daughter was born, that same coworker was adopting a baby. I told him he was right, there was no marriage club. But there is a parents club! People don't talk about their marriages. That's why others are often so surprised when people get divorced. They didn't see it coming. But people do talk about their children. All parents want to know that their kid is at least on track. "Is it okay that my child isn't walking yet at one?" "My baby hasn't rolled over yet, is that okay?" "Oh, your child throws everything all over the room too? Whew, good to know!" I wrote down and counted my daughter's first 100 words! Did she have a 100 word vocabulary before others her age? I wanted to know.

As for all questions being answered, is that ever possible?

Back to divorce. It's remarkable how much I hear about their marriage after they get divorced!

So it's not that I'm unwilling to have these conversations after I got married. In fact I found certain outlets to have these conversations. It's just not as readily accessible, or comfortable, or to a certain degree acceptable.

Thanks for giving me an outlet to express these things.

[myq]

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

I was often at the table with five other women. I feel like I got a pretty steady dose of the female perspective. My aunt was a very outspoken woman and very funny. (Side note: she died a year ago after having Alzheimers for many years. Very sad seeing this vivacious woman turn into nothing. In many ways death was a blessing. She was in her early 60s.)

I am sorry to hear about that. Glad she isn't suffering anymore, but sorry she had to suffer as much as she did. And you. (But also glad you had the time you did with her.)

So I've always related to women more than men. In fact, throughout my life I've only had a handful of close male friends. To this day I'm very comfortable sitting around with my wife's friends.

I felt that way as well for a lot of my life, and still do somewhat though now I don't differentiate as much. Growing up, I had mostly close female friends, and very few male ones. Now I have a lot of friends of all genders. I think being a comedian, I've been lucky to get to meet the type of guy who is obviously comfortable talking about lots of things that many people wouldn't. Women are certainly socialized to be more open, I would say, but it doesn't have to only be that way. There are certainly a lot of men out there like yourself, and myself, and some good friends, who are also happy being open and emotive and sharing and things that men "aren't supposed to do," according to whatever dumb societal thing put that into effect. (You brought up the fact that the men in your life weren't around as much, but even if they were, they might not have had as large an effect, if they were conditioned not to share as much. Who knows!)

When I got engaged a guy in my office congratulated me and said, "welcome to the club!" A coworker of mine said to me, "there is no club." And he was right. Men don't really talk about being married. Sure, they jokingly complain about their wives. But no one discusses what it feels like, the emotions, the pains, the struggles of being married. Women may discuss it with other women, but men don't discuss it with other men. And sexuality becomes more secretive. It's just between your wife and you. Talking about it outside of that feels a little like cheating, emotionally cheating.

This is very interesting. I understand what you're saying, and it certainly makes sense on a level, but let me ask you this... do you think that it actually IS emotionally cheating? Is it a betrayal of your relationship's privacy to discuss your issues with, say, one trusted good friend who is not a part of the relationship?

I've been married, not for as long as you certainly, and I've cohabitated and had long-term relationships (again not mega-long-term), but I've always been comfortable sharing the ups and downs with a good friend or two. Or three. Usually just not all at once. Not like at the bar or a diner or after a show when it's the whole gang, and I'm like "here's a sincere relationship issue to discuss," or "what do you think about this sexual thing with my wife?" But certainly on an individual level, I've found that being able to talk about private things with people who will keep them private, supremely helpful.

It doesn't really make sense to me that if you have a problem in your relationship, you are required to only deal with it and discuss it and solve it within the confines of that relationship. I understand the desire to do so, but sometimes the outside perspective of a caring, trusted friend can be super valuable. True? (Not saying that you don't have this... you allude to something like it later in your post, I think.)

Several years later, after my daughter was born, that same coworker was adopting a baby. I told him he was right, there was no marriage club. But there is a parents club! People don't talk about their marriages. That's why others are often so surprised when people get divorced. They didn't see it coming. But people do talk about their children. All parents want to know that their kid is at least on track. "Is it okay that my child isn't walking yet at one?" "My baby hasn't rolled over yet, is that okay?" "Oh, your child throws everything all over the room too? Whew, good to know!" I wrote down and counted my daughter's first 100 words! Did she have a 100 word vocabulary before others her age? I wanted to know.

As for all questions being answered, is that ever possible?

That makes a lot of sense as well. You make a lot of sense, Brian!

Back to divorce. It's remarkable how much I hear about their marriage after they get divorced!

So it's not that I'm unwilling to have these conversations after I got married. In fact I found certain outlets to have these conversations. It's just not as readily accessible, or comfortable, or to a certain degree acceptable.

Thanks for giving me an outlet to express these things.

Of course. You're welcome to share any and all of your private matters here. Your secret is safe with the internet.

Sincerely, really interested to hear this stuff, and any more that you want to share.

[BrianAlt]

Originally Posted by myq

do you think that it actually IS emotionally cheating? Is it a betrayal of your relationship's privacy to discuss your issues with, say, one trusted good friend who is not a part of the relationship?

It depends on the person I'm discussing it with. One good friend? Probably not. A therapist? I'd say no. Another woman? Probably. At least in my wife's opinion. And hers counts a lot here.

I've been married, not for as long as you certainly, and I've cohabitated and had long-term relationships (again not mega-long-term), but I've always been comfortable sharing the ups and downs with a good friend or two. Or three. Usually just not all at once. Not like at the bar or a diner or after a show when it's the whole gang, and I'm like "here's a sincere relationship issue to discuss," or "what do you think about this sexual thing with my wife?" But certainly on an individual level, I've found that being able to talk about private things with people who will keep them private, supremely helpful.

By the way, I've been married 22 years. I don't say that to prove I know more. It's so you can say congratulations to me.

My best friend is single and never married. I have discussed certain sexual aspects with him, but not many. Few guy friends I've had have been comfortable on that level. Women seem more open to it, but I point back to my answer above.

It doesn't really make sense to me that if you have a problem in your relationship, you are required to only deal with it and discuss it and solve it within the confines of that relationship. I understand the desire to do so, but sometimes the outside perspective of a caring, trusted friend can be super valuable. True? (Not saying that you don't have this... you allude to something like it later in your post, I think.)

I believe that to be very true. And I agree that I did allude to it. And that's all I'm going to do...because...

Your secret is safe with the internet.

[myq]

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

It depends on the person I'm discussing it with. One good friend? Probably not. A therapist? I'd say no. Another woman? Probably. At least in my wife's opinion. And hers counts a lot here.

That makes sense. Do you agree with your wife's opinion? (If you feel comfortable answering.)
Obviously I can imagine a scenario in which a straight man is discussing his sexual relationship with another woman who is not his wife, and having that be inappropriate if the other woman is interested in the man, say (and/or the man in the woman).
But what about a situation wherein neither the man nor the other woman are interested at all, she is otherwise involved, or a member of another sexual orientation, whatever the case, absolutely no threat to the relationship, only interested in helping... I can understand the wife (or husband, for that matter, were the roles reversed) wanting rules in place that err on the side of keeping that potential threat at bay, but what if that threat is entirely absent? Are those rules still important because she (or he) feels they are? Do you think (a la When Harry Met Sally) that the threat is never entirely absent?

Again, no need to answer specifically if you don't want to.

By the way, I've been married 22 years. I don't say that to prove I know more. It's so you can say congratulations to me.

Congratulations!
And I'll say, you certainly know more about YOUR marriage than I do. And if you're happy in it, then you win. Or more happy than unhappy, certainly.

My best friend is single and never married. I have discussed certain sexual aspects with him, but not many. Few guy friends I've had have been comfortable on that level. Women seem more open to it, but I point back to my answer above.

When you say the guy friends aren't comfortable, can I ask what that means? You start to talk about something sexual and they say "ew, gross, that's your wife?"

Curiosity!