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Old 01-07-2009, 07:26 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Israeli Palestinian Conflict Thread

A discussion of the conflict in Gaza has been going on in the 4" stud show thread and I wanted to bring it out into the general discussion in hopes of opening up the conversation. I am going to duplicate the relevant posts to seed this thread and hopefully you guys will take it from there.

EllaMacFarlane:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane View Post
first off, i want the person who called in to show me the youtube video which our army put up, bragging about how we bombed the gaza strip.

secondly, us reacting to the rockets now as opposed to earlier or later is simply because the israeli public has had enough and demanded the government to take action. the gov't has been stalling because 1) we only have america behind us and 2) we are aware that gaza is filled with civilians who shouldnt be punished for hamas' actions. it has nothing to do with obama entering office.

even tho hamas has been bombing israel for years, and we have been bombing them for days, the world public opinion is very hostile, as usual, towards israel. theyre mad that we killed more.

it all comes down to the fact that israel's security system is far superior to the palestinians', whenever a bomb is shot from the palestinian territories the alarm rings in the city it will land on. unfortunately, all the humanitarian aid from the un, red cross and other arab nations given to the palestinian gov't, which is hamas, was spent on more missiles.

of course we can wipe out gaza, but that would be inhumane and unfair.
Gonzo:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane View Post
secondly, us reacting to the rockets now as opposed to earlier or later is simply because the israeli public has had enough and demanded the government to take action. the gov't has been stalling because 1) we only have america behind us and 2) we are aware that gaza is filled with civilians who shouldnt be punished for hamas' actions. it has nothing to do with obama entering office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo? View Post
I have not heard the show yet so I can't comment on the alleged videos of Israeli.

However Israels offensive into gaza is not purly as a result of the 'fed up' Israeli public grumblings, it coincides with the lapse of a truce between the Israeli gov and hamas (which is the reason for the 'stalling') and falls at a time of relative political vacuum in the US before the pro-truce President Elect takes office.
DarkKnightJared:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkKnightJared View Post
As for the whole Israel/Gaza thing...it's just a mess. From what I've read, really, neither side is fully innocent. I'll go with Ella calling bullshit on the videos, because I would think it would have been made more of a big deal by now. As for the second part...on one hand I can see where this, after a long series of shit, could be the straw that broke the camels back. But, I can also understand why some people would find it suspect that the Israeli govt. has decided now to start attacking back as heavily as they are.
DaveNJ:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo? View Post
I have not heard the show yet so I can't comment on the alleged videos of Israeli.

However Israels offensive into gaza is not purly as a result of the 'fed up' Israeli public grumblings, it coincides with the lapse of a truce between the Israeli gov and hamas (which is the reason for the 'stalling') and falls at a time of relative political vacuum in the US before the pro-truce President Elect takes office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
The lapse in the truce is the issue, but the timing for that has nothing to do with the US presidency and everything to do with Hamas.

The truce was started about 6.5 months ago, and it was a 6 month truce.

Israel tried to renew the truce. Hamas said no and ramped up rocket fire (which had never actually stopped during the truce).

Hamas Intern-Miked Israel. Israel, after all the shit they put up with during the truce, still tried to extend it, even knowing the rocket fire wouldn't stop.

Hamas said, "No thanks, we'd rather look tough, and we don't think you've got the balls to invade Gaza."

They fucked up, and now Gaza's paying the price for electing a shitty government that wants to be terrorists and politicians at the same time.

The end of Bush's term is coincidental. The truce was due for renewal near the end of his term, but it came down to Hamas not renewing it, not Israel trying to get a last punch in.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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EllaMacFarlane:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo? View Post
I have not heard the show yet so I can't comment on the alleged videos of Israeli.
However Israels offensive into gaza is not purly as a result of the 'fed up' Israeli public grumblings, it coincides with the lapse of a truce between the Israeli gov and hamas (which is the reason for the 'stalling') and falls at a time of relative political vacuum in the US before the pro-truce President Elect takes office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
The lapse in the truce is the issue, but the timing for that has nothing to do with the US presidency and everything to do with Hamas.
The truce was started about 6.5 months ago, and it was a 6 month truce.
Israel tried to renew the truce. Hamas said no and ramped up rocket fire (which had never actually stopped during the truce).
Hamas Intern-Miked Israel. Israel, after all the shit they put up with during the truce, still tried to extend it, even knowing the rocket fire wouldn't stop.
Hamas said, "No thanks, we'd rather look tough, and we don't think you've got the balls to invade Gaza."
They fucked up, and now Gaza's paying the price for electing a shitty government that wants to be terrorists and politicians at the same time.
The end of Bush's term is coincidental. The truce was due for renewal near the end of his term, but it came down to Hamas not renewing it, not Israel trying to get a last punch in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane View Post
i agree, i totally forgot to mention that the lapse in truce pushed the israeli people to demand action from our government's side.
SuperCujo:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCujo View Post
Nevermind that an election is due soon in Israel and the war mongering parties have got a major boost in the polls from invading Gaza.

I understand that Israel got sick of rockets coming over the barbed wire (a total of 4 dead in the last few years) but Israel didn't help the situatiuon by placing a blockade on Gaza (which is in violation of the Geneva Convention).

What are a people going to do when they are trapped inside barbed wire for the entirety of their lives struggling to survive? Nevermind that Israel is treating the residents of Gaza exactly the same way the Nazis treating the Jews in overrun countries in WWII. The ghettoisation of the Jews was an entirely intentional attempt to disenfranchise the population and it worked. The Jews were locked up surrounded by barbed wire with absolute minimal supplies coming in.

In the end, this is both the fault of Hamas and Israel. I think the only way to solve this is for Israel to return to pre-1967 borders, close all settlements in the West Bank and allow Arabs to own land in Israel. But, we all know it won't happen.
DarkKnightJared:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCujo View Post
Nevermind that an election is due soon in Israel and the war mongering parties have got a major boost in the polls from invading Gaza.
I understand that Israel got sick of rockets coming over the barbed wire (a total of 4 dead in the last few years) but Israel didn't help the situatiuon by placing a blockade on Gaza (which is in violation of the Geneva Convention).
What are a people going to do when they are trapped inside barbed wire for the entirety of their lives struggling to survive? Nevermind that Israel is treating the residents of Gaza exactly the same way the Nazis treating the Jews in overrun countries in WWII. The ghettoisation of the Jews was an entirely intentional attempt to disenfranchise the population and it worked. The Jews were locked up surrounded by barbed wire with absolute minimal supplies coming in.
In the end, this is both the fault of Hamas and Israel. I think the only way to solve this is for Israel to return to pre-1967 borders, close all settlements in the West Bank and allow Arabs to own land in Israel. But, we all know it won't happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkKnightJared View Post
While I'm not the person to bring up the Nazis during a discussion--Goodwin's Law and all--but yeah, both sides are just about equally guilty of some sort of wrongdoing.
Roach_Headburn:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkKnightJared View Post
While I'm not the person to bring up the Nazis during a discussion--Goodwin's Law and all--but yeah, both sides are just about equally guilty of some sort of wrongdoing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach_Headburn View Post
Godwin's Law is only enacted when someone is being compared to the nazis or hitler; in the case you are actually discussing nazis in a realistic or historic context, Godwin's Law shall not be enacted.
SuperCujo:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCujo View Post
The caller talking about Israel used the misquote of the Iranian PM about Iran wanting Israel wiped off the map as if they want to kill all the Israelis. That has been debunked as a serious misquote.

The real intent of that speech was to say that the creation of the state of Israel was wrong and that the country of Palestine should replace it. Not once did he say that all Israelis should be killed.

The whole region is a shit fight and the fact that the US blindly funds and supports Israel just stirs up more hate.
dark_logo:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCujo View Post
The caller talking about Israel used the misquote of the Iranian PM about Iran wanting Israel wiped off the map as if they want to kill all the Israelis. That has been debunked as a serious misquote.

The real intent of that speech was to say that the creation of the state of Israel was wrong and that the country of Palestine should replace it. Not once did he say that all Israelis should be killed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_lobo View Post
During the current situation I'm siding with Israel, I believe they have the right to defend themselves from their daily rocket strikes and broken 'cease fire' agreements.
but why did Israel a few months want to bomb IRAN? Granted, Iran doesn't recognize Israel, they think the holy land should belong to Palestine, etc, but how do you get from 'we don't like you because you talk shit about us and don't recognize us as a country' to 'we're gonna bomb the shit out you!' ? did I miss something?*
*This subject particularly worries me because my parents live in Iran.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
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DaveNJ:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_lobo View Post
During the current situation I'm siding with Israel, I believe they have the right to defend themselves from their daily rocket strikes and broken 'cease fire' agreements.
but why did Israel a few months want to bomb IRAN? Granted, Iran doesn't recognize Israel, they think the holy land should belong to Palestine, etc, but how do you get from 'we don't like you because you talk shit about us and don't recognize us as a country' to 'we're gonna bomb the shit out you!' ? did I miss something?*
*This subject particularly worries me because my parents live in Iran.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
Iran's building a nuclear program suspected by many to be directly aimed at obtaining nuclear weapons. Israel has had in the works plans to bomb their reactor facilities like they did to Iraq in '81 so that Iran can't obtain the fissile material necessary to create a nuclear weapon. Given Iran's stated aim of eliminating Israel I'd say they have a right to be scared.

As for the Nazi comparison, it's incredibly weak. The border closures of Gaza were enacted after Hamas (a terror group) came to power in Gaza. Gaza was very poor for a long time, but the blockade has been aimed at weakening Hamas in the strip to limit their ability to fight Israel. Israel didn't round up its Arab population and put it in Gaza then put up a wall. In fact, they removed all their settlements from Gaza in 2005. However, Palestinians voted Hamas into power in 2006 and then Hamas orchestrated a violent coup in the Strip in 2007 to obtain complete and utter control.

Israel has to allow in humanitarian aid, but they have every right to restrict imports to a hostile power that's at war with them. Otherwise no military blockades of any sort would be considered legal.

The problem is this: right now Israel sees zero prospect for peace when the Palestinians are essentially in a state of civil war. The 2005 Gaza pullout was unprecedented, and could have been the blueprint to further settlement evacuation, but the day after the pullout Hamas had to flex its muscle by firing rockets into Israel. Since then most of the ex-settlements have become a key launching ground for Hamas rockets.

Why would Israel potentially put its entire nation within range of rockets when the Palestinians are in no position to guarantee peace? That's just stupid.

Any solution will depend on military restraint by Israel, but it's not a one way street. The Palestinians need to get their shit together and decide they want peace before it can happen. Right now that's not the case, so they get war instead.
dark_lobo:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
Iran's building a nuclear program suspected by many to be directly aimed at obtaining nuclear weapons. Israel has had in the works plans to bomb their reactor facilities like they did to Iraq in '81 so that Iran can't obtain the fissile material necessary to create a nuclear weapon. Given Iran's stated aim of eliminating Israel I'd say they have a right to be scared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_lobo View Post
I understand that, but it is only speculation that they are working on a nuclear program to obtain nuclear weapons. I honestly believe that they are working on that project to get cheaper energy. They rely pretty much 100% on oil, and since they have a lot of it, their energy bills are insanely low (my parents had to pay ~3 bucks for electricity during the summer... taking into account that they had 2 AC's turned on through the entire month, I'd say that's pretty cheap) so, in my opinion, their nuclear program is aimed toward getting another source of energy, taking into account that oil doesn't last forever, etc.
Also, Iran itself is a very peaceful place, peaceful people, etc. My parents see no violence at all, no thefts, etc. the closest thing they saw to violence was people marching down the street holding shoes up after that iraqi reporter threw his shoes at Bush, but it was a peaceful demonstration.
EllaMacFarlane:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCujo View Post
The caller talking about Israel used the misquote of the Iranian PM about Iran wanting Israel wiped off the map as if they want to kill all the Israelis. That has been debunked as a serious misquote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane View Post
mahmud ahmedinijad stated over and over that israel and its people should be bombed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCujo View Post
What are a people going to do when they are trapped inside barbed wire for the entirety of their lives struggling to survive? Nevermind that Israel is treating the residents of Gaza exactly the same way the Nazis treating the Jews in overrun countries in WWII. The ghettoisation of the Jews was an entirely intentional attempt to disenfranchise the population and it worked. The Jews were locked up surrounded by barbed wire with absolute minimal supplies coming in.
In the end, this is both the fault of Hamas and Israel. I think the only way to solve this is for Israel to return to pre-1967 borders, close all settlements in the West Bank and allow Arabs to own land in Israel. But, we all know it won't happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane View Post
israel has every right to put a fucking fence in our fucking side of the border and dont you fucking dare to compare this to the holocaust.
and no, we shouldnt return to our 67 borders because according to the geneva convention, if a country attacks you, and in your retaliation you conquer their territories, you have every right to keep them, which is exactly what happened to us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_lobo View Post
During the current situation I'm siding with Israel, I believe they have the right to defend themselves from their daily rocket strikes and broken 'cease fire' agreements.
but why did Israel a few months want to bomb IRAN? Granted, Iran doesn't recognize Israel, they think the holy land should belong to Palestine, etc, but how do you get from 'we don't like you because you talk shit about us and don't recognize us as a country' to 'we're gonna bomb the shit out you!' ? did I miss something?*
*This subject particularly worries me because my parents live in Iran.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane View Post
iran has in the past years been gaining nuclear powers and israel is still debating what actions will we take when our intelligence informs the gov't that iran can nuke israel.
Keith:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
I sincerely liked reading all these, but to say Iran wishes death on no one is ridiculous. The state of Israel should go and Palestine should take over? What do you think that means?
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:27 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Cretaceous Bob:
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Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
It's really pointless to take any side.

There wouldn't have been a problem if the Zionists hadn't decided land ownership is determined by religious texts, and there wouldn't be a problem now if people decided their children's futures were more important than fighting over land they felt was promised to them. The same way there was a huge influx of Jews into Palestine/Israel, they can all leave. Just about anywhere else in the world would serve as a better Jewish homeland. It's one thing to reside in a country for hundreds of years and then protest when you get attacked, but it's another entirely when you chase the inhabitants out of a piece of land, fill it with your own people, and then protest to coming under fire.

It's their war, and it's a mistake to get caught up in it. We should always provide assistance to anyone who wishes to leave the area on either side, but, otherwise, we should just butt out. That sounds harsh, given that most people on both sides don't deserve the stress, living conditions, and death inflicted upon them, but the harm taking a side does is not justified by the cause.

I'd also like to say I've noticed for a long time how Chemda always says she knows very little about Israel and Judaism, and simultaneously is very sensitive and defensive about the two. Whenever KATG got a letter from someone offended by something, Chemda was always the one to say, "That's the one thing that offended you? We're offensive about everything, so either be offended by everything or by nothing," yet when Keith turns the same humorous eye he applies to every country to Israel, Chemda is always frustrated and defensive. Keith can stereotype anywhere else, and say he doesn't need anywhere else, but what he says doesn't warrant protest until he says Israel is not, in fact, beautiful, but rather alot of brown dirt. That's not even that bad. Since all land is largely made up of dirt, most things beyond the extremely urban New York City are going to have a very strong tendency to bear a resemblance to dirt. Keith may claim Israel has a more monochromatic variety of dirt than most, but that's hardly something to constantly treat with impatience and irritation.

Edit: Oh, also, it's rare when I like anything outside of metal/classical/baroque music, but that 4 Inch Stud song from their new EP is pretty killer.
Badger:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger View Post
We need Jesse Joyce back on to blame Britain for inventing Israel in the first place.
catPee:
Quote:
Originally Posted by catPee View Post
well put Cretaceous Bob. And I've always said what Keith is saying - Both sides are children on a world scale. I wouldn't waste money on bombs and fuel for bombers - Lets just turn off all the cameras, and media, stop all trade, just say bye bye to everyone involved. Agreed, if anyone wants out, take care of them. But most of the 1st world can handle mixed cultures by now. There just isn't an excuse for this kinda boring crap any more.
catPee:
Quote:
Originally Posted by catPee View Post
interesting short documentary on Vice TV about the whole gaza bidness...

PALESTINE VS. ISRAEL - AGAINST THE WALL - Part 2 of 6 - VBS.TV

ok, brumsky
DaveNJ:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
It's really pointless to take any side.

There wouldn't have been a problem if the Zionists hadn't decided land ownership is determined by religious texts, and there wouldn't be a problem now if people decided their children's futures were more important than fighting over land they felt was promised to them. The same way there was a huge influx of Jews into Palestine/Israel, they can all leave. Just about anywhere else in the world would serve as a better Jewish homeland. It's one thing to reside in a country for hundreds of years and then protest when you get attacked, but it's another entirely when you chase the inhabitants out of a piece of land, fill it with your own people, and then protest to coming under fire.

It's their war, and it's a mistake to get caught up in it. We should always provide assistance to anyone who wishes to leave the area on either side, but, otherwise, we should just butt out. That sounds harsh, given that most people on both sides don't deserve the stress, living conditions, and death inflicted upon them, but the harm taking a side does is not justified by the cause.

I'd also like to say I've noticed for a long time how Chemda always says she knows very little about Israel and Judaism, and simultaneously is very sensitive and defensive about the two. Whenever KATG got a letter from someone offended by something, Chemda was always the one to say, "That's the one thing that offended you? We're offensive about everything, so either be offended by everything or by nothing," yet when Keith turns the same humorous eye he applies to every country to Israel, Chemda is always frustrated and defensive. Keith can stereotype anywhere else, and say he doesn't need anywhere else, but what he says doesn't warrant protest until he says Israel is not, in fact, beautiful, but rather alot of brown dirt. That's not even that bad. Since all land is largely made up of dirt, most things beyond the extremely urban New York City are going to have a very strong tendency to bear a resemblance to dirt. Keith may claim Israel has a more monochromatic variety of dirt than most, but that's hardly something to constantly treat with impatience and irritation.

Edit: Oh, also, it's rare when I like anything outside of metal/classical/baroque music, but that 4 Inch Stud song from their new EP is pretty killer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
So Jews aren't allowed to immigrate to the Middle East? The strength of Israel as a nation is that it's the restoration of the world's only Jewish nation. To say it would succeed elsewhere is ludicrous. The ONLY reason it works is because of Judaism's historic attachment to the land.

It's misrepresentative to say Jews just came in and took land. A lot of land was purchased and Britain allowed immigration into a territory they controlled. Jews moved in. Eventually a partition plan (like Pakistan and India) was set up. Israel accepted a tiny state for Jews, much smaller than it is now, and with no territorial contiguity.

The Arabs declined and invaded.

Yeah, America backs Israel, but why shouldn't we? Israel is a democratic nation with amazing trade ties with us. They have the number one producer of generic pharmaceuticals on the planet, and if your computer uses a Dell processor odds are it was fabricated in Israel. Israel invented AIM, too.

What would you have America do, just back down because doing the right thing is unpopular? Fuck that. Most Americans believe that aiding Israel and other small democracies that depend on us for protection (South Korea, West Germany pre-reconciliation, etc.) is a hallmark to our foreign policy.

We don't even put soldiers in Israel, and our foreign aid to Israel is only slightly higher than our foreign aid to Egypt, a nation with a dictator.

Israel catches a lot of shit because the Arab world hates Israel. There's tons of stuff going on right now that's way worse than what's happening in Gaza. Darfur, where the killers are Muslim (so we can't pay attention to that in the Arab world), DR Congo, where 5 million have died in the past ten years, and so much more.

Israel is a country that isn't going away. Until the Arab world accepts that and works for peace none of this stuff will stop.
Cretaceous Bob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
So Jews aren't allowed to immigrate to the Middle East? The strength of Israel as a nation is that it's the restoration of the world's only Jewish nation. To say it would succeed elsewhere is ludicrous. The ONLY reason it works is because of Judaism's historic attachment to the land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Dude, people were there already. Sorry, but if they don't like you, or don't like a lot of you showing up and trying to start a country, tough shit. You can fight the ensuing war, but that's not a legitimate reason for us to help you. (Oh, and also, no, people didn't and don't want Jews to move to the middle east. That's what happens when people are living somewhere. That was a stupid question.)

Why would it not succeed elsewhere? It can hardly be argued other candidates would be more inhospitable. Would it not work because the Zionists would not possibly settle for anything less than a restoration of Israel? Then while I can understand that, I cannot support that. That is unreasonable, and extremity of demands leads to inevitable hostility.

This is not a case of persecution within a country, or any sort of mistreatment of a people residing alongside the offending faction. This is an outside party placing themselves in the middle of an existing situation. Since you say the degree of harm in a situation should determine how much attention we give it, surely you can agree that there are far more causes worth supporting than this. Perhaps a situation where a people already lived in an area, and are being persecuted for just living there, rather than moving there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
It's misrepresentative to say Jews just came in and took land. A lot of land was purchased and Britain allowed immigration into a territory they controlled. Jews moved in. Eventually a partition plan (like Pakistan and India) was set up. Israel accepted a tiny state for Jews, much smaller than it is now, and with no territorial contiguity.

The Arabs declined and invaded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Is it? Was there not a conscious decision to move a mass of people onto pre-owned land based on the promises of a religious text?

If you're going to cite the decisions of Britain as proof of who is right, then you will recognize that the British imposed increasingly strict immigration policies into Palestine, and Zionists moved into the area anyway. Zionists committed acts of violence against the British in retaliation to the immigration laws. In fact, the British refused the UN demands of unrestricted Jewish immigration into Israel. The owners of the land AND the residents of the land were against the immigration. If you say an imperialist power allowing immigration is a justification of support, how is the defiance of an imperialist power's immigration laws not a condemnation of that cause? If you do not agree that is a condemnation, then you have put forth that the Zionists had the right to move into the area, regardless of the will of the residents or owners. Why? And would you support that same justification if it were applied to the US's immigration laws?

A partition plan was decided on by the UN. It was a plan created by people not on the land, without regard for the people on the land, and was then expected to be accepted by the people on the land. It is misrepresentative to say a refusal of such a plan is unreasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
Yeah, America backs Israel, but why shouldn't we? Israel is a democratic nation with amazing trade ties with us. They have the number one producer of generic pharmaceuticals on the planet, and if your computer uses a Dell processor odds are it was fabricated in Israel. Israel invented AIM, too.

What would you have America do, just back down because doing the right thing is unpopular? Fuck that. Most Americans believe that aiding Israel and other small democracies that depend on us for protection (South Korea, West Germany pre-reconciliation, etc.) is a hallmark to our foreign policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Wait, are you arguing what is right, or what is profitable?

And yes, forcing the survival of unpopular ideologies in a region hostile to our philosophies is a hallmark of our foreign policy. Kind of funny how alot of complaining goes on about our foreign policy, especially about the period of time wherein we did this backing.

What's more, supporting one side is assenting to harm being done to the other. If you support Israel based on its system of government, you are deciding human life is devalued when it disagrees with you. I cannot see how that is superior to the Arab way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
Israel catches a lot of shit because the Arab world hates Israel. There's tons of stuff going on right now that's way worse than what's happening in Gaza. Darfur, where the killers are Muslim (so we can't pay attention to that in the Arab world), DR Congo, where 5 million have died in the past ten years, and so much more.

Israel is a country that isn't going away. Until the Arab world accepts that and works for peace none of this stuff will stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Oh, now something isn't bad unless there isn't something worse? I guess I'll go shoplift, and when the government tries to take action against me I'll yell about how there's more important things going on somewhere else. Or at least I would, if that argument didn't sound stupid in every single situation it could possibly be applied to.

There was a long history of anti-Zionist sentiment before the establishment of the state of Israel. The reaction of the Arabs to its formation was not surprising, especially given the violence leading up to it. There has to be a greater reason for provoking such violence than a book promised so.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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DamianDavid:
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Originally Posted by DamianDavid View Post
Yeah.... I think I'm going to have to back Keith's plans for pond renovations because clearly the nations of Israel, Iran, Palestine, etc. are way too distracting from what's truly important here, the band....

Hey Keith....so I was thinking... how do you feel about doing a co-branding thing on beach chairs and towels that we can sell down by the new watering hole? Depending on how many bombs we use, the good ole U.S. could make miles and miles of waterfront property on the 19th.
hayroob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
I'm the one who called in, the youtube videos i was talking about got taken down because of user complaints, but are still getting regular play on cnn and msnbc if you watch their coverage.

I think Jon Stewart is showing some of the best most balanced coverage I've seen (this was aired like 5 hours after I called into the show)
Strip Maul | The Daily Show | Comedy Central
hayroob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane View Post
israel has every right to put a fucking fence in our fucking side of the border and dont you fucking dare to compare this to the holocaust.
and no, we shouldnt return to our 67 borders because according to the geneva convention, if a country attacks you, and in your retaliation you conquer their territories, you have every right to keep them, which is exactly what happened to us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
First off fucking telling people what they fucking can fucking compare fucking things to when they're making a legitimate fucking point makes taking you fucking seriously a lot harder.
Second the fact of the matter is that Israel is just as guilty of aggression as the palestinians and moving back to pre 67 borders would be a huge step to show that Israel actually wants peace and isn't just waiting till the UN gives them the ok to seize what sovereignty the palestinian attempt at a state has left.
hayroob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Dude, people were there already........ There has to be a greater reason for provoking such violence than a book promised so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
I really like this and your earlier post, it is measured, well researched and given a lot of thought.
I've always thought that post holocaust a return to their holy land was a natural response, but for external imperialists powers to declare them a sovereign nation was going to piss of the people that were already there, especially when laws start getting passed based on people ethnicity/religion. I really believe that if a jewish state needed to be established in order to establish the security and future of the jewish people and faith then they should have carved them out a big chunk of Germany, which I don't think at the time anyone would have been in a position to contest.
DamianDavid:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
I really like this and your earlier post, it is measured, well researched and given a lot of thought.
I've always thought that post holocaust a return to their holy land was a natural response, but for external imperialists powers to declare them a sovereign nation was going to piss of the people that were already there, especially when laws start getting passed based on people ethnicity/religion. I really believe that if a jewish state needed to be established in order to establish the security and future of the jewish people and faith then they should have carved them out a big chunk of Germany, which I don't think at the time anyone would have been in a position to contest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianDavid View Post
I think I have a tendency to make sense out of this statement. I think this mess was bound to happen when land was taken away from inhabitants regardless of the good intention at the time. I actually think it's silly that it's so hard for people to see why the displaced persons would feel resentment and a sort of entitlement because of this arrangement....but then again, I guess that's why I choose to live in Chelsea....there's a weird sense of pride I feel in living in a nice place where squatters and low rent payers used to live until kicked off a few years ago in order to build a "Green Community Residential Structure" that provides some serious tax dollars for the politicians' campaign costs on top of being good for the earth. I mean I'm saving the environment, man, everytime I flush my double chambered enviro-toilet! Best part is, I watched some f*ckwad pour the oil from the pan he changed the oil to his car with in the garage of this eco-friendly empire down the flood drain just outside the garage door....oooops. Guess he didn't get the memo....or maybe they just needed bodies to fill the vacancies and got a little lazy with the reference/background checks and interrogation.

Cheers to good intentions and the f*ckin' mess they make.
EllaMacFarlane:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
First off fucking telling people what they fucking can fucking compare fucking things to when they're making a legitimate fucking point makes taking you fucking seriously a lot harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMacFarlane View Post
sorry i snapped

also, we are not going to just go back to the 67 borders so it will show our good intentions. we need a signed treaty that will make both sides stop shooting while we discuss borders.
Mattman:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Dude, people were there already........ There has to be a greater reason for provoking such violence than a book promised so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattman View Post
All very well put.

Some other interesting talking points ....
-the Jewish settlements on land "belonging" to Palestinians are still there in spite of US resolutions, and were usually the targets for missiles before the ceasefire and after its cessation.
- much of the Israeli Army is Russian. They were immigrants fleeing the post-soviet mess looking for a better life. The Palestinians were born there and their children have been born into refugee camps in some of the most crowded and inhumain conditions in the world. And now they are imprisoned without even medical aid (humanitarian corridor opened by Israel? how generous!)
- it was widely reported, although officially denied, that Cheyney had OKed Israeli military action in advance
- Israel have been bombing administration and security force "targets" as well as the "terrorists". All police stations were levelled in the first 48 hours including one that was celebrating a passing out ceremony of cadets, killing 40 of them
- US have vetoed UN sanctions against Israel that would have allowed aid.
- Palestinians elected leaders from Hamas. A sign that the majority of Palestinians believe Hamas are the best group to defend their remaining land.
Jon:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
I sincerely liked reading all these, but to say Iran wishes death on no one is ridiculous. The state of Israel should go and Palestine should take over? What do you think that means?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon View Post

Keith, you have to make it Kahmedy to bring it home. It's the way you can get the point acrooss with a punch.
The U.S. needs to threaten to blow shit up and mean it if the kids on the playground can't behave and keep their hands to themselves, fuck 'em. Just like Regan with the Soviet Republic. It worked. I'm pretty sure we were born the same year.... '74.
Do you remember when you were six or seven and watching Palestinians and Israelis shoot each other up w/AK-47s while our parents watched the news on Friday or Saturday night news? 60 minutes? Andy's brows didn't quite reach out and touch you like they do now....And then you might have watched that boring crap on Sunday morn (the boring show with the sun fixture in the background) during breakfast?

Same fuckin' shit. Diff Day. Nothing new Right? Nothing's new. It's the 2000 year old war over shite. I call Brumsky. Grab friends and foes by the balls and let them know The United States cares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCujo View Post
The whole region is a shit fight and the fact that the US blindly funds and supports Israel just stirs up more hate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon View Post
SuperCujo....

The 2000 year old fight.

It's easy:

USA was established by old school Christians breaking away from England.
They had a lot more in common with beliefs of their heritage- Christian based faith evolving from the Bible vs. the Qur'an.
The U.S. is getting farther away from old school founding father laws and dispositions, collectively, as the melting pot boils in the U.S. after the liberal movement in the late sixties. Times are different and we can have differences and agree to disagree now without ridicule from our next door neighbors.

I don't know if we "fund" Israel so to say, but we do sell them F-16s and munitions. We never sell any allies new shit i.e. F-22 Raptors or top end smart missiles. They get old shit so if they do anything that doesn't meet up with our national interests, fuck you.

It's not blindly funding as you put it, respectively. It's just political evolution governing our country's world influence. The far right is hard core Israeli biased. Some of our hard core left countrymen are now backing Hamas and the Islamic Resistance Movement.

No matter what side you believe in, the fighting is fucked and been going on for TWO MILLENNIUM. Now its just the same bullshit.
Except we have to worry about NUKES now. The wrong fucker gets the right gun and the whole world blowes the fuck up.

We gave Israel nukes already. Iran doesn't even back Hamas even though that Hamas hates Israel. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called Israel a stinking rotten corpse. Korea has the Nukes, Iran has good missiles. Does Iran want nuclear bomb capacity or already have it right under our noses? You think it out. How should the world protect itself? Is the U.S. responsible for keeping that shit out of Irans hands? Does the U.S. have the capacity to prevent this? Regan dealt with a similar situation with success. The sad realization is that it wont go away until we blow each other or the whole world up or just sing that Coca Cola song from the 80's and hope for the best.

Snoop Dog: "6,000,000 ways to die.... Chose One."

DaveNJ:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattman View Post
All very well put.

Some other interesting talking points ....
-the Jewish settlements on land "belonging" to Palestinians are still there in spite of US resolutions, and were usually the targets for missiles before the ceasefire and after its cessation.
- much of the Israeli Army is Russian. They were immigrants fleeing the post-soviet mess looking for a better life. The Palestinians were born there and their children have been born into refugee camps in some of the most crowded and inhumain conditions in the world. And now they are imprisoned without even medical aid (humanitarian corridor opened by Israel? how generous!)
- it was widely reported, although officially denied, that Cheyney had OKed Israeli military action in advance
- Israel have been bombing administration and security force "targets" as well as the "terrorists". All police stations were levelled in the first 48 hours including one that was celebrating a passing out ceremony of cadets, killing 40 of them
- US have vetoed UN sanctions against Israel that would have allowed aid.
- Palestinians elected leaders from Hamas. A sign that the majority of Palestinians believe Hamas are the best group to defend their remaining land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
1. Those police officers were members of Hamas with guns. "Security forces" were used to overthrow Abbas in 2006, and many moonlight for other parts of Hamas' organization. Hamas is at war with Israel. These were Hamas members with guns. That's a military target. Unless you believe that Hamas police would not engage in combat, which they have clearly done before, there's no demarcation here.

2. Palestinians elected Hamas, but Hamas ousted Fatah from Gaza. The Palestinians are in a state of civil war. It's not as simple as the party with the most votes leads. There's factionalism down to the family clan level. That's why organizing the Palestinians is so difficult. Israel doesn't have one negotiating partner, they have Abbas and they have other groups that are at war with it.

3. Israel has plenty of ex-Russians. So what? A citizen of a nation is not necessarily born there. In our Civil War many Union soldiers were German or Irish immigrants fighting men with long ties to their respective southern states. A citizen is a citizen. Nations can enact different immigration policies if they so choose.

I also notice you overlook that Israel was built on approximately one million Jewish immigrants from Arab nations over the years 1948-1957 who were illegally expelled and dispossessed of their property just as much if not more so than the Palestinians. Where is your call for their reparations?

It's not as simple as "this land was my grandfather's, kind of". Land claims can go even further back than that. Do Jews who were expelled centuries ago have a claim? If not, why do Palestinians? What we have here is two groups of people that need two states. Israel needs to halt settlement in the West Bank and probably retract some of them as a good faith gesture.

However, it takes two to tango. The Palestinians need to get their shit together and get one government to represent them. That government needs to recognize Israel's right to exist and come to the bargaining table for peace.

Until then, more war, and it's going to hurt the Palestinians a lot more than the Israelis.

Oh, and this blind funding shit is just wrong. America funds Egypt's regime and sends them F-16's, too, Egypt just uses them to prop up their corrupt regime whereas Israel uses them on terrorists.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Mattman:
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Originally Posted by Mattman View Post
A good argument .... which is why we have the mess in this area. Israel and Palestine need to both have a recognised place to exist, limited by recognised borders such as those in previous resolutions.

History has given different people "residential rights" to various areas over the years. In some cases (like the British Empire) it was temporary, and the residents regained control. In others it is transient ... and previous residents are permanently displaced. In these cases, claiming a 2000+ year-old God-given right of return is quite a difficult story to defend. But most of the Western countries played a part in this bugger's muddle. Just as most of the Middle East has practiced religion-based residency rules as you point out.

I would personally like to visit the birthplace of Jesus, which logically (if we apply Biblical land rights) should be "owned" by the Christians. Instead it is treated by irreverence by both Muslims and Jews alike, and Christian pilgrims can be caught in the crossfire, literally.

The point about Russian jews (and some of them were not Jewish, but simply migrants from Russia claiming jewish faith to get a new life) was the irony of an immigrant seeking a higher lifestyle displacing a resident to a concentration camp (refugee camp). The further irony of Russia is that Israel was financing, or at least assisting Georgia in its tussle with Russia recently .... hard to choose friends these days, isn't it.
DaveNJ:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattman View Post
A good argument .... which is why we have the mess in this area. Israel and Palestine need to both have a recognised place to exist, limited by recognised borders such as those in previous resolutions.

History has given different people "residential rights" to various areas over the years. In some cases (like the British Empire) it was temporary, and the residents regained control. In others it is transient ... and previous residents are permanently displaced. In these cases, claiming a 2000+ year-old God-given right of return is quite a difficult story to defend. But most of the Western countries played a part in this bugger's muddle. Just as most of the Middle East has practiced religion-based residency rules as you point out.

I would personally like to visit the birthplace of Jesus, which logically (if we apply Biblical land rights) should be "owned" by the Christians. Instead it is treated by irreverence by both Muslims and Jews alike, and Christian pilgrims can be caught in the crossfire, literally.

The point about Russian jews (and some of them were not Jewish, but simply migrants from Russia claiming jewish faith to get a new life) was the irony of an immigrant seeking a higher lifestyle displacing a resident to a concentration camp (refugee camp). The further irony of Russia is that Israel was financing, or at least assisting Georgia in its tussle with Russia recently .... hard to choose friends these days, isn't it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
1. Show me the passage in the New Testament that lays claim to the land of Israel for Christianity. Jesus never makes claim to land, but rather the kingdom of heaven. He explicitly states his is not an earthly kingdom. Land theology really only belongs to two of the three Abrahamic faiths, and Islam appropriated a good degree of the idea from Judaism. Land theology only ever became important once Christians were powerful enough to conquer. You're confusing military power with scripture.

That said, even if the right is not given theologically why is a right of return for a people expelled 2000 years ago wrong? Is there a time limit for returning? If so, why can't Israel just stall until Palestinians lose all claim to their land?

2. Russian Jews immigrating to Israel didn't result in anyone getting SENT to Gaza. Displacement can occur in the West Bank, though.

As for Israel selling arms to Georgia, Georgia imported arms from many nations friendly with the US, Israel being one of those friends. Russian Jews weren't leaving Russia because Russia was such a great place to be a Jew. My ancestors are proof of that. You seem to think that all those Russian Jews make Israel have great ties with Russia. Not so. It's not like all those Jews left Russia because Russia was friendly with Israel, then Israel switched sides and backed Georgia.
DJ Trashy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Trashy View Post
Israel is actually a bit larger than New Jersey

Size Comparison Map of Israel and New Jersey

But four hours across and eight hours long? Uh, no. 250 miles north to south or so. Maybe 100 miles across at its widest point.

Jus' sayin'
Cretaceous Bob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
I've been looking through this thread, Mr. DaveNJ, and you seem to have ignored my post in order to go pick on weaker arguments. Are we having a serious discussion, or a Push DaveNJ's Agenda silly time? You're continuing with your argument, despite the fact that I pointed out flagrant flaws in your reasoning. There's more you're adding the pile, but I don't see a point in continuing if you're just going to be a rigid robot that defeats what it can, and side-steps what it can't.
DJ Trashy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Trashy View Post
For those who care, here's a good backgrounder on the whole damn mess over there. It all started with the damned Balfour Declaration. In fact, most of the conflicts in that part of the world date back to that document and other 'solutions' the British provided as they slowly pulled back from their Empire.

- India-Pakistan-Kashmir
- Israel-Palestine
- Iraq-Iran and the Sunni-Shia issue

History of the Palestine Problem
hayroob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
3. Israel has plenty of ex-Russians. So what? A citizen of a nation is not necessarily born there. In our Civil War many Union soldiers were German or Irish immigrants fighting men with long ties to their respective southern states. A citizen is a citizen. Nations can enact different immigration policies if they so choose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
Being in the land where your people can make a direct provable claim to and then being chased out by people who claim your land because they share a common faith with people who lived there before any modern land rights were established is hard to stomach. I think that Israel has a right to exist but they need to coexist with Palestine and recognize that any historical claims to the land aren't really going to hold water. Showing up and claiming occupied land as your own and then acting indignant is not a smart plan of action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
I also notice you overlook that Israel was built on approximately one million Jewish immigrants from Arab nations over the years 1948-1957 who were illegally expelled and dispossessed of their property just as much if not more so than the Palestinians. Where is your call for their reparations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
How does getting chased out of one place give you the right to chase someone else out of another place. If the Jewish people that were escaping tyranny wanted to claim their holy land as a safe haven, they need to play ball with the current occupants and not negotiate with Britain to eject the current occupants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
It's not as simple as "this land was my grandfather's, kind of". Land claims can go even further back than that. Do Jews who were expelled centuries ago have a claim? If not, why do Palestinians?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
Historical land rights are very rarely recognized, especially in such a contested area. People who fought in the crusades' descendants could start showing up claiming land rights to big hunks of Israel. Land rights before that are more conjecture than real claims. Palestine was a well established nation long before WWII, but Britain colonized it, just like everything else, and decided to make decisions to favor the west instead of the current inhabitants. I really believe that after the holocaust the western world (specifically europe) was in shambles and already ramping up for the cold war, they had never seen such an atrocity committed against a people on such a scale and when it was over they offered to put them anywhere they wanted without really giving enough thought about long term problems and better solutions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
What we have here is two groups of people that need two states. Israel needs to halt settlement in the West Bank and probably retract some of them as a good faith gesture.
However, it takes two to tango. The Palestinians need to get their shit together and get one government to represent them. That government needs to recognize Israel's right to exist and come to the bargaining table for peace.
Until then, more war, and it's going to hurt the Palestinians a lot more than the Israelis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
This is good. Both sides need to want peace. Israel wants the land and position they currently have with no static from Hamas. Palestine wants Israel to give them back most of Israel. Neither one is really getting anywhere good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
Oh, and this blind funding shit is just wrong. America funds Egypt's regime and sends them F-16's, too, Egypt just uses them to prop up their corrupt regime whereas Israel uses them on terrorists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
Two things: We absolutely lob money at them, they have one of the most sophisticated armies in the middle east and they use it to great effect.
America funds lots of shit heads, that doesn't mean we should give Israel an insurmountable military edge over Palestine.
DJ Trashy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
Being in the land where your people can make a direct provable claim to and then being chased out by people who claim your land because they share a common faith with people who lived there before any modern land rights were established is hard to stomach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Trashy View Post
So - if I happened to share religious beliefs with Native Americans, I should be able to go to Manhattan and take it over because, after all, my 'people' were there first. Genius.

That's gotta be the best freakin' analogy I've ever come up with!
hayroob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Trashy View Post
So - if I happened to share religious beliefs with Native Americans, I should be able to go to Manhattan and take it over because, after all, my 'people' were there first. Genius.

That's gotta be the best freakin' analogy I've ever come up with!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
Well you and a lot of people with similar flimsy claims would have to get chased out of New Jersey and show up in Manhattan and the government of Canada would have to help you claim sovereignty.
DJ Trashy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayroob View Post
Well you and a lot of people with similar flimsy claims would have to get chased out of New Jersey and show up in Manhattan and the government of Canada would have to help you claim sovereignty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Trashy View Post
Works for me. And I get to do shrooms too! Bonus
Cretaceous Bob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
It really is absurd to base modern land ownership on property lines of 2,000 years ago.

Where the fuck does that leave people like me, who have a varied background and no extreme religious views? Are you going to give me your house, DaveNJ? Because a homeland is essential for atheists from a line of immigrants who were reasonable enough to become assimilated into the country they moved to rather than try to forge it into something new. In fact, such a cause would be even more worthy than the Jewish one, because my people have NEVER had a homeland.

And if we're really going to consider giving a religious group land purely because their people were on it a long time ago, don't we have to ask why they had it in the first place? Even the Bible portrays the Jews as as warlike and bloodthirsty as every other peoples surrounding biblical Israel (like in Numbers, for example, when Moses commands Israelites to "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." That's a quote from the motherfucking Bible). So by what right do the Jews own that land? If we do not believe their religion to be true, it is as likely as not that they gained the land by bloodshed, and that gives them no right to anything. If we are to believe their religion is true, we are now giving land to a religious group solely because they claim it was God's will. That would never hold up in our own courts of law for even the most trivial of matters, so why the hell does it work for an entire country? Any modern civilization that distributes land based on the will of a deity is a sham and a disgrace, and every other civilization would have a moral obligation to violently resist such nonsense.
DJ Trashy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
It really is absurd to base modern land ownership on property lines of 2,000 years ago.

Where the fuck does that leave people like me, who have a varied background and no extreme religious views? Are you going to give me your house, DaveNJ? Because a homeland is essential for atheists from a line of immigrants who were reasonable enough to become assimilated into the country they moved to rather than try to forge it into something new. In fact, such a cause would be even more worthy than the Jewish one, because my people have NEVER had a homeland.

And if we're really going to consider giving a religious group land purely because their people were on it a long time ago, don't we have to ask why they had it in the first place? Even the Bible portrays the Jews as as warlike and bloodthirsty as every other peoples surrounding biblical Israel (like in Numbers, for example, when Moses commands Israelites to "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." That's a quote from the motherfucking Bible). So by what right do the Jews own that land?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Trashy View Post
First we'd have to establish the authenticity of the record. Frankly you end up with multiple semi-nomadic tribes all over the place. But still, try tying those people from 1000 BC to any group of people today. I mean genetically. You can't do it. There is no unbroken lineage of Jewish heritage that has been proven. The religion is still here, but religion and ethnicity are two separate things. My ancestors were Quakers, but that doesn't mean I can go claim my gggggggreat grandfather's original land in northern Delaware. (and there's that pesky native American thing again)

Oh, and it's the same for Palestinians - most couldn't establish lineage directly back to 1000BC or so although they'd be closer than modern Jews. Jus' sayin'
Cretaceous Bob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Hell, speaking of ethnicity, I work with a woman who insists that the biblical Jews were African. Does she, as a person of African descent, have the right to lay claim to an Israeli's house?
DJ Trashy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Hell, speaking of ethnicity, I work with a woman who insists that the biblical Jews were African. Does she, as a person of African descent, have the right to lay claim to an Israeli's house?
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Originally Posted by DJ Trashy View Post
Only on Tuesdays.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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bunch of cool pics here:

Scenes from the Gaza Strip - The Big Picture - Boston.com

sort of strange, seeing another country using all the weapons I'm used to seeing our boys carry.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I star in here!
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:25 AM   #9 (permalink)
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This was a really enlightening thread.
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Great wall of text. Damage +999
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